How accurate to be ethical

[KHickam]

Just wondering what group size - hits you believe you must have at 50 yds to ethically hunt for big game? :thumbsup:

 

[Cowboy45j]

I want no more than 2" from point of aim. That's shooting off hand at 100 yards. From a rest it needs to be tighter, that gives me a little bit of room for error when buck fever kicks in.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Oh, Boy, will you be starting a war with this question!!! :shocked2:

The intent of any hunter is to bring game down quickly, and humanely. 50 yards is not a long distance. The heart/lung area on Whitetail deer, seen broadside, is about a 10 inch circle. On the smaller deer, it is less, on old mature bucks and doe, its a bit more. On Elk, its probably 12 inches or more. Elk weigh more than twice what the typical whitetail will weigh.

So, if you can put a shot in a 10 inch circle from your favorite shooting position, 8 out of 10 times, you will probably make meat. But, take into account " buck fever", the adrenalin rush that will rob you of your fine motor coordination when you see game coming within range, Being out of breathe, limits on visibility due to time of day, weather conditions, and the interference of brush and trees between you and the game, and you probably need to cut that 10 inch circle down a LOT!

Off a rest, I want my gun shooting one hole at 50 yards. I have a shotgun slug barrel that will put 5 consecutive shots, off-hand, with iron sights, at 50 yards in a 2 inch group. With the support of any rest, I can make that one large hole a little more than 1 inch.

My .50 caliber rifle, which I use to hunt deer, will shoot one hole groups off a rest if I do my part. Off-hand, I can keep them in less than 3 inches. I try to use a 'Standing rest' whenever I fire at game, either a handy tree trunk, or a walking stick I take with me. So far, all the deer I have shot have dropped within a very few yards, if not in their tracks. All have been shot under 50 yards, either in woods, or along the edges of woods/fields.

 

[rabjr]

Off a rest, I want my gun shooting one hole at 50 yards.

Same here. It's very rare that I've taken a shot at deer without a rest of some kind, something I try to avoid like the plague. I did find last year I could keep 3 off hand shots under 2" at 50 yards with my flint .58 which surprised the hell out of me but still will always prefer a good rest when hunting. Beyond 50 yards I strive to keep everything within a 2" group and that pretty much dictates my max range.

 

[KHickam]

So, what if you are shooting off hand with a smoothbore?

Today, I shot 2 groups of 5 shots. One group at 25 yds and another at 50. At 50 yds the furthest shot from point of aim was 3 1/2" 2 shots were within 1" of point of aim and 1 ball cut the X ring.

At 25 yds the furthest hit was 1 1/2" from point of aim with the other 4 balls within 1" of point of aim.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have a 20 gauge fowler, but have not yet worked up a load for a PRB in it yet. I have been spending more time working on a shot load, as bird hunting is much more popular, and available here, than hunting anything with a smoothbore shooting a PRB.

What are my goals for a PRB in a fowler? I still want a 2 inch, one hole group for 3-5 shots off a rest. If I can get a smaller group, I will be happy. Off-hand, I want to keep the group to no more than 5 inches, with me huffing and puffing, or I will pass on the shot. That goal may reduce such shots to 35 yards or less.

I am not going to intentionally take a shot I know I can't make, and chance wounding a deer, or worse, maiming it, to die a slow death. I was a deer checker when I was in college, and saw enough shot up deer brought into the check station to convince me what I don't want to do. And, if you listened to the stories of the hunters, there were twice as many wounded deer left out in the woods, because they could not track them- they didn't know how. :shocked2:

Now, that's how ethics advance beyond the written page to action, IMHO. Its all about self discipline- the ability to insist on doing " The right thing" when only God and you would know what you have done. :hatsoff: :wink:

 

[tg]

I like to be able to keep a 4-5 " group offhand with the fusil, this will shrink up some with a rest witch I try to use when hunting and also try to be closer than 50 yd when hunting. with this standard and a good discipline the deer will be down.

 

[Trench]

This is really subjective, but I always figured you would want to practice enough to keep all your off-hand shots within 6 inches at 50yds taking in account the unsteadiness of buck fever. So, I guess you'd want tighter groups when you're not so excited.

 

[roundball]

Just wondering what group size - hits you believe you must have at 50 yds to ethically hunt for big game? :thumbsup:

Specifically answering your question, for deer hunting the good no-fail heart/lung area is about a 6-7" circle...my goal when practicing is to keep all shots in a 3" aim point sticker no matter what the distance...all that the distance does is dictate the "amount and type of rest" that I need to make it happen.
I buy the stickers in 1000 count rolls, stick them in the middle of cheap 9" white paper plates...works for me.

 

[longcruise]

Just wondering what group size - hits you believe you must have at 50 yds to ethically hunt for big game?

A 20 inch group at 50 yards is fine and the hunter who can't do any better than 20 inches at 50 yards should not feel that it's unethical for them to hunt.

OTOH, it would not be ethical for them to take a 50 yard shot. This hunter should probably limit shots to 15 or 20 yards.

I know, I'm nit picking your question in my own round about and irritating way. :haha: But, IMO, there are no ethics injvolved in the choice of weapon or the inherent ability to use that weapon. The ethics are in the decision whether to shoot or not at any given opportunity.

One year I was shooting an archery silhouette match in August which is just a few weeks before season opened. I was shooting my stick bow and was not in very good shape due to several years off with a shoulder injury. It was a compound bow oriented shoot with longish shots and of course most of my arrows were completely missing the foam. One of my assigned shooting partners told me I had no business hunting and that it would be unethical for me to do so. But, as I demonstrated over the next few targets, when the range was limited to 15 yards I was 100%. So, the ethics involved for me was to limit my shots to 15 yards or less. It's hard for the gizmo shooters in the archery world to comprehend that just as it's hard for the scoped suppository hunters to grasp our desire to hunt with the round ball.

There's a guy in the hunting community who is pretty well known. Some people love em and others detest him. Without saying who or expressing my opinion on the person, I'll say that one of this persons popular sayings that I agree with is; "ethics are in the heart, not in the hand."

 

[Little Wattsy]

Just wondering what group size - hits you believe you must have at 50 yds to ethically hunt for big game? :thumbsup:

Specifically answering your question, for deer hunting the good no-fail heart/lung area is about a 6-7" circle...my goal when practicing is to keep all shots in a 3" aim point sticker no matter what the distance...all that the distance does is dictate the "amount and type of rest" that I need to make it happen.
I buy the stickers in 1000 count rolls, stick them in the middle of cheap 9" white paper plates...works for me.

Roundball is DEAD ON!!

Read some pretty bold claims further up there(1/2" groups off hand at 200 yards blidfolded, shooting over my shoulder at a moveing target :grin: )
You simply need to KNOW that you can kill deer (or ?) at YOUR max range. If you can obtain a 3" group then you will get-er-done! Then you limit your distance and stance to meet THAT objective. Practive to increase distance open up shooting stances like "off hand".
Remember too that JUST as important if not even more so is managing/practicing your composure. Ive seen "great shots" (see bold claims abouve) that have missed ENTIRE DEER at 75 yards. 1" ragged holes at 100 yards dont mean Jack when the fever gets ya in the field.
AND...not many critters have a bullseye painted on em either...gotta be able to "pick yer spot" at what ever range.
Anyway...Be ready to retain or regain composure at the moment of truth and KNOW that you can identify and hit a 3" target at that range and you got a dead aminal.

 

[roundball]

"...Ive seen "great shots" (see bold claims above) that have missed ENTIRE DEER at 75 yards..."

"...1" ragged holes at 100 yards dont mean Jack when the fever gets ya in the field..."

Amen...PLUS...all the accuracy robbing influences from hurrying the shot, shooting in low light conditions, at uncertain distances, rain, wind, cold, etc, etc.

AND...not many critters have a bullseye painted on em either...gotta be able to "pick yer spot" at what ever range.

Amen again...and is probably the single biggest reason deer size animals are VERY often just wounded or even missed completely is "looking over/past the sights" on an open sight barrel at the whole deer.

Also, unless fairly close to the animal, bench rest bullseyes are basically meaningless when shooting offhand or semi-offhand in the woods...recoil arc is completely different and the POI is often much higher.

I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar for every time I've heard somebody who lost a deer, said it was because of poor performance of the particular cartridge...or ML components...rarely ever hear it's because of their shot execution..."because they can shoot 1" groups at a 100 yards from the bench", etc, etc, etc.

 

[tg]

"Read some pretty bold claims further up there(1/2" groups off hand at 200 yards blidfolded, shooting over my shoulder at a moveing target" while taking a leak...in a blizzard!

What a man.

 

[longcruise]

"Read some pretty bold claims further up there(1/2" groups off hand at 200 yards blidfolded, shooting over my shoulder at a moveing target" while taking a leak...in a blizzard!

Dang, I thought Topperwein was dead! :shocked2:

 

[Greenmtnboy]

with todays custom barrels you should be able to get MOA at 50 and 100yrds.
That is what I strive for to be an ethical hunter, that and practice,practice,practice.
:thumbsup:

 

[laufer]

2-3" at 50, 3-5" at 100. no complaints yet from the oposing councel.
0.5 to 0.75 at 300 yards, blindfolded and lucky!

 

[Stumpkiller]

Just wondering what group size - hits you believe you must have at 50 yds to ethically hunt for big game? :thumbsup:

I take a different view. My rule-of-thumb is your maximum range on deer for ANY weapon is that which you can hit a one-gallon milk jug EVERY TIME, 100%, FIRING AS YOU WILL WHILE HUNTING. Don't shoot from a bench in practice and expect to shoot as well in the field.

As far as an ethical group size at 50 yards, I have no idea. I've known good, successful hunters who probably couldn't put five slugs in a 6" circle at 50 yards. The ethical thing to do in that case is limit yourself to closer shots (in this part of NY we can't use rifles and slugs from shotguns are the norm).

I don't think smaller groups make you a better person, and some benchrest quality target shooters can't pick a spot, find a clear window or overcome buck fever and so have no better results than a calm shooter with a half-accurate firearm.

 

If you can consistently hit a paper plate at your max range not using a bench, that's plenty good for big game... but not squirrels. :wink:

Sean

 

[Headhunter]

When I want to find out my Max Range, I make a FULL SIZE, LIFE SIZE, target of the critter I am hunting.

I Start at 25 yards and go out in 10 yard increments until I can't put one RIGHT BEHIND THE SHOULDER from field shooting positions.

When you practice like this, the PAPER DON'T LIE.

You will know right quick where your max yardage is with that gun, that load, that light condition, that target clarity.

HH

 

[hanshi]

Whatever distance I can keep ALL my shots in the heart/lung area of a deer from the shooting positions I'll be using in the woods regardless of target group size on the range. I know that up to 75 yards, at least, I can do this with every hunting prb gun I own. All deer taken beyond that distance have been taken over hay bales in fields. My hunting rifles will all put 5 prbs in 1" or less at 60 yards from a benchrest. This, however, is irrelevant. What counts is what can I do.