How low can you go?

[NAA_Silent]

Howdy, I don't post here very often, but I do read a fair bit here. I recently purchased, and completed a Traditions St. Louis Hawking's cap lock rifle kit in 50 cal. This is my first black powder rifle, and I'm itching to take it to the range and try it out. I have been shooting cap and ball revolvers for a couple years now, so black powder isn't totally new to me.

The only local powder substitute I can acquire around here is American Pioneer 2f in 100 grain, pre measureded vials. I'v tried American Pioneer 3f in my pistols, and have not been impressed, it seems to loose power as it ages. I do have Pyrodex P, and 777 on hand both 3f.

Reading the manual that came with the rifle shows 50-75 grains being the most accurate, and 110 grains being max for a 50 cal. I don't see the need to beat myself up, or the rifle, since I'm only shooting paper. I'm thinking of breaking up the loads into 65 grain vials, and starting there.

My planned load is 65 grains AP, .490 cast ball at about 175 grains, and a .015 lubed patch. I figured I'd ask here and see if there is some experience and wisdom to be gleaned about American Pioneer and the Traditions Hawking's.

Thanks

 

[Dave Marsh]

Personally I would go with real black powder. If you can't get that I would try the 3f 777 before I would buy the AP. I also use a .018 patch. I shoot a TC Hawken in 50 cal. And when I start sighting in a new gun I start at the number of grains equal to the caliber and then go up in 5 grain increments until I get my best group. Just my two cents worth. I am sure you will get a lot of advice.....

 

[George T.]

Yeah you will want to try the .018's and maybe even .495 balls. I to would vote for real black powder. But I know of onne T/C 54 that shoots best with Pyrodex. However it smells funny! :grin: Geo. T.

 

[Shifty]

I have one of those mine has a 1-66" twist barrel,so far the most accurate load for it is .490 Hornady Rb,80grns FFg Goex ,blue strip pillow tick patch, mink oil lube, I haven't tried any more powder that the 80grns haven't had a chance just started shooting it a few weeks ago.

 

[NAA_Silent]

How tight are the balls suppose to be?

I've already purchased a .490 mold for the round balls, and some .015 pre lubed patches. Cap and ball pistols are easy, just shave a ring. But I've never dealt with patched balls, so I have no point of reference at all. I don't want to try and jam a patched ball down the barrel, I have no way to get it out other than to shoot it out.

 

[Shifty]

I recrowned my barrel the factory crown was no good I also conned it so it is fairly easy to load ,no short starter needed,but it still takes some effort to seat the prb,it should not take exessive pressure to seat ball and it should not go down real easy either,I don't overly lube my patchs and you can try different patch thickness easier than buying different size balls. have fun .

 

[William O.]

I'd dump the APP and if you can't get real black then pick up some 2f Triple 7. A .490 round ball and some .015 pre-lubed patches with a starting powder charge of 50 grains. Once you've poured in your powder, center the patch over the muzzle and press on the ball. Sometimes you can thumb start the patched round ball but there will be some resistance which is what you want to ensure a good gas seal along with the rifling being able to grab on and impart a spin. A short starter is a handy device but you can seat the PRB using just the ramrod. You can also get a range rod with a free spinning T handle that gives you more leverage and won't break like wodden ramrods can. Just seat the PRB on the powder charge firmly, no need to crush it down. Mark the spot at the muzzle on both your ramrod and range rod so you'll know if your rifle is loaded by just dropping it down the bore. This avoids shooting a double charge or a short started load. To work up an accurate load, start with 50 grains and shoot three times aiming at the same point on your target, then increase by 5 grains and repeat until your groups get nice and tight, not to exceed the maximum amount. It's only after you've found the best powder charge for your rifle that you start to adjust your sights, change patch thickness or lube type, etc. Also, if you choose Triple 7 you need to reduce your powder charge by 10% as it is more energetic than traditional black powder or the other substitutes. 40 grains of 2f Triple 7 is a good starting load. You may also need to swab your bore between shots in case loading becomes difficult. An alcohol dampened cleaning patch works very well, but never try swabbing with a dry cleaning patch as it's a good way to get it stuck. In the event you load the PRB without a powder charge, remove the nipple and our a few grains in, replace the nipple and with the muzzle pointed downrange simply put a cap on and pull the trigger. This is called a dryball and there are two types of folks who shoot a muzzle loader; those that have dryballed and those that will. Hope this helps and have fun with your new rifle.

 

[redneck]

American Pioneer is for use in inlines with heavy slugs. has to be compated. tried it in a fowler ball bounced of bd. at 25 yds, use swiss or schutzen. fine podwer. i havecans that have been stored for 4 yrs

 

[Ron_T.]

I have 2 older, percussion cap, CVA Hawken Rifles in .50 caliber plus a Traditions "Shenandoah" flintlock Rifle and all 3 rifles love 47 grains of FFFg Swiss or Goex real black powder loads with a Hornady .490 swagged round rifle ball with a 16/1000ths denim cotton patch.

All 3 rifles have Spanish made barrels.

I use a melted mixture of bee's wax and Crisco Oil as a patch lube and it works pretty good.

At 25 & 50 yards, the rifles all shoot a fairly "tight" group with all the rifle balls touching or very close together... often forming just one hole at 25 yards and about 1½ 5 shot group at 50 yards shooting off the bench-rest using sandbags to "steady-up" the rifles.

My deer hunting load is 70 grains of Swiss FFFg... and that load will shoot through both sides of a deer at ranges up to 80 yards, my self-imposed maximum shooting distance on deer.

I hope this information helps.

Make GOOD smoke... :thumbsup:


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

 

[rafterob]

I also have a Traditions .50 cal Hawkins. The .490 ball with .015 patch is right on. A .495 ball is real tight. I would go ahead and shoot up the American Pioneer powder just to break your rifle in and not worry a whole lot about groups. 50 grains might do it well enough, that way you could get two shots per vial. APP is probably the least desireable of the substitute black powders. If Pyrodex or 777 is readily available choose those first. I understand there can be problems getting Black Powder in California. Before I switched to Black Powder, I shot 80 grains of Pyrodex RS in my rifle with good results.

 

[NAA_Silent]

Unfortunately, there is only one gun shop in the area that sells black powder rifles and black powder substitute. The guy that owns the shop is absolutely enamored with APP, and refuses to stock anything else.

I would love to try Goex, but I have been unable to find any anywhere but on-line, and on-line sales add in $27.50 hazmat fee per shipment. In California, I am limited by law to only 1 pound of black powder on hand maximum, and up to 20 pounds of smokeless/substitute.

 

[Billnpatti]

Livng in California, you have my deepest sympathy. Black powder is always your best choice for any muzzleloader. But, when it is not available and you must use a substitute, my recommendation is Triple 7. Buy it by the pound, never use the pellets. Those damned pellets are meant to be used in the infernal in-lines, not real muzzleloaders. Besides, pellets or pre-measured vials of some substitute do not allow for small adjustments in your powder charge to get your best accuracy. One way to get real black powder when it is not available in your area is to get together with friends who shoot muzzleloaders and order whatever is the minimum shipment. That way, you spread the hazmat fee among all of those who are ordering powder.

To develop a load for your .50 cal rifle, start with 50 grains of powder (or the volume equivalent of any substitute) and work up in 5 grain increments until you find the best load for your particular rifle. My suggestion for patches is to go to a fabric shop and ask for a fabric called "pocket drill". Wash it to remove all of the sizing and do not use any fabric softner. The lube that I prefer is straight Ballistol. I pre-cut my patches and dampen them with Ballistol and let them sit in a medicine bottle for several days to evenly dampen them. You want to be able to feel the Ballistol on the patches but you don't want them wet, just damp. I find that using Ballistol as a lube, I don't have to swab my bore while I am shooting and it is more easily cleaned up when I get home.


I just couldn't make it in California with the ridiculous requirement that you not have more than one pound of black powder. I have a pound each of Goex 4f and Swiss Null B for my flintlock pans. I have several pounds of 3f for my pistols and several of my rifles and I have several pounds of 2f for my other rifles and my shotguns. One pound?.... my sweet aunt's patootie......ain't no damned way. As for substitute powders, if you are shooting a caplock, they will work but if you are shooting a flintlock you must have the real black powder or else your flintlock rifle will be just a wall hanger. And, after over 40 years of building and shooting muzzleloaders, that's the way I see it. :hmm:

 

[Sean Gadhar]

With your .50 cal. if you can start the patch & ball useing just your thumb, your too loose. IMO On the other hand if you need to bang on the starter or short rod to get it the 1st 5" then the rest will be hell.

Remember you should not hold the ram rod higher then 8" above the barrel so you don't bend and brake it. When your pushing the patch & ball to seat on the powder, you should, with short strokes be able to do it with only one hand on the rod (I have had to use two, in cold weather and/or after the barrel is fouled up)

Wow this is harder than I thought (maybe cuz it's 7am & I have had no coffe)

someone with coffee in them will get it down better for you. but theres a start.

 

[Dave Marsh]

Just curious about the California law of one pound and how they enforce it or would even know if you had more than one pound in your home??? I would sympathize with you and your California laws however I live in New York so not much better.

Dave

 

[NAA_Silent]

Who knows, but they track everything. It's not worth being classified as a terrorist just to have an extra pound of black powder (or as California calls it, "bomb making materials")

 

[NAA_Silent]

Thank you all for the wealth of good information, I appreciate all of the input! I think I will split up the American Pioneer powder into 50 grain loads and use it for breaking in both me, and the rifle. After the AP has been burnt out, I'll switch to a more suited powder, probably 777 since I use that in my cap & ball pistols. Then the load development can start.

 

[Little Wattsy]

ROAD TRIP!!!

Come on up to Oregon, as sickenly Socialist as we are, guns are still OK and BP is available in larger quantities... You can vaca up here, get some powder, shoot your heart out, and then sludge back to that hell-hole known as Mexi-Fornia...

 

[russecv58]

have you checked with Reed's sport shop or Castello's gun shop? I've heard they sell BP. :hmm:

 

[NAA_Silent]

Reeds is now an indoor range, and they sell no powder at all. Castillos is the guy that is enamored with APP. At least there is someplace I can get caps and such locally.

 

[russecv58]

if you ever make it up to Jamestown, stop in at B Bar Y Traders, they carry real BP. Rusty's Gunsmithing on hwy 49 just outside of San Andreas also carries it. if nothing else, Manteca sportsmans club has a black powder shoot every second saturday of the month, one of those guys might be able to point you in the right direction for a source over in the bay area. :thumbsup: