How much Gun for Big Game? or How Little!

[Norsk]

I met a fellow in Alaska who had killed an attacking Kodiak Bear with a 6" Buck Knife.

 

[Bob McBride]

I met a fellow in Alaska who had killed an attacking Kodiak Bear with a 6" Buck Knife.

I grew up on Kodiak Island and there was an old guy my Pop knew who had killed a big male with a knife. Must be the same guy. There can’t be too many old Wolverines like that wandering around.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

When I got to Alaska in 1981 the first thing I did was go looking for a .44 Magnum revolver to "PROTECT MYSELF" from bears. The salesman in the first gun shop I entered told me politely, but firmly, to ditch that idea and instead buy a good pump-action, 12 gauge shotgun loaded with Brenneke rifled slugs.

Since I took a LOT of pride (bad word, pride can get you in all kinds of trouble) in my ability to shoot a handgun, I left that shop and went searching for another more suited for my needs.

After visiting at least 4 additional gun shops, and hearing the EXACT SAME sales pitch from every salesman, it finally dawned on me that I was being given GOOD ADVICE, and maybe I should listen to it.

After all, a Ruger Blackhawk single-action revolver in .44 Magnum cost more at the time than the shotgun. If all they wanted to do was make a sale, then I could have been sold 5-6 Ruger Blackhawks that day.

 

[Norsk]

I grew up on Kodiak Island and there was an old guy my Pop knew who had killed a big male with a knife. Must be the same guy. There can’t be too many old Wolverines like that wandering around.

He was my neighbors relation,I met him at one of their family cook outs. If I remember correctly the incident occurred in the 70s or very early 80s when he was Deer hunting. He was quite chewed up but the Bear came off worse.

There was/is a knife shop on the parks highway towards the Kenai. Up on the wall is a picture of a guy sitting in a puddle of his own blood after killing a Muskox which attacked him, he used one of their knives.

 

[Bob McBride]

We got to Alaska in '78. Most guys I knew did carry a magnum on the hip for the 'forlorn hope' but none of us ever went hunting without one of us had a shotgun with the plug out. We used a bird shot followed by slugs. Reasoning being that if the bear was farther than 30 yards you'd just blast the shot out and start laying in with slugs but if she was in camp that bird shot in the nose really took away her ability to focus. That was the theory anyway. We were ran out of camp a few times but each time involved backing up and fast talking until we were out of danger (Twice we got to the boat and once she just wanted us out of camp so she could sniff around a bit and tear up one sleeping bag).

 

[excess650]

There was/is a knife shop on the parks highway towards the Kenai. Up on the wall is a picture of a guy sitting in a puddle of his own blood after killing a Muskox which attacked him, he used one of their knives.

In the mid '90s the shop was north of Seward on the east side of the road. I bought a knife there, and still have his card. Walt Campbell was his (knife maker) name. I recall that he was cutting blades from solid chainsaw bars at the time.

 

[excess650]

excess650 if you find time to see what issue it was, I will order one and read.

I have a in project 20 bore with Forsyth rifling, 104 twist.

As of yet, I'm not having any luck in locating that particular issue. It MAY have been summer 1998 issue, or not. My recollection is that there was a Dall sheep on the cover and Ross Seyfried's article regarding Forsyth rifling was within. He sourced (2) barrels from different makers, both ".62", one was a Bill (?) Moody with 1-96" (?) and the other was a Gaintwist (?) with slower final twist. Both were used on the same percussion action and tested for accuracy with powder charges from mild to wild (60gr-180gr IIRC) and chrono data.

I'm gonna start another thread regarding big bore hunting rifles rather than take this one off on a tangent.

 

[Norsk]

In the mid '90s the shop was north of Seward on the east side of the road. I bought a knife there, and still have his card. Walt Campbell was his (knife maker) name. I recall that he was cutting blades from solid chainsaw bars at the time.

You are quite right! I got my highway names confused

 

[Kmcmichael]

Shotgun vs pistol for bears:
A shotgun is defiantly better as it is easier to get the big cargo to the target more efficiently more quickly. However if you lay it on the ground or lean it against a tree stream side while you fish, take pictures or work on a fence then it is not very much help. I’ve seen lots of films in which this was the case.
On the rare occasion when the wife and I hiked in Grizzly areas I carried a .475 Linbaugh it could propel 440 grains at 1200 FPS. it was a Freedom Arms 83 with the 4.75 bbl, and concealable . It was a lot of gun and too much for me as I aged.

I am still looking for some opinions on.40 PRB on Texas deer in this thread?

 

[Cvkotvkse]

Re: "dead" bears still being dangerous...To put it in the words of African PH's guiding clients hunting Cape Buffalo, " Remember! It's the dead ones that get up and kill you!"

 

[Bob McBride]

I am still looking for some opinions on.40 PRB on Texas deer in this thread?

There are those who always argue more is better and will think you’re a lunatic and taking their wife’s personal safety in your hands if you tow anything more than a 10’ lawnmower trailer (empty) with anything less than a 3500 Diesel Dually and who wouldn’t hunt Elk with anything less than a 460 Weatherby Magnum. I’m not that guy. You’ll never hear a poofy virtue signaling sermon from me but my personal minimum for Whitetail is .45rb. Lots of experienced hunters argue for .50 as a minimum. I might be that guy as well if my old Pop didnt shoot deer on our farm with his .45 plains rifle with a 30 yard drop rate of 100% in the past 75 deer or so. Based on his experience I occasionally use one of my .45s. I hate an animal to suffer unnecessarily. Your Texas deer are much smaller than ours and perhaps it would be enough but I would think your mass is getting small enough you’re risking the rb redirecting after clipping ribs. Personal opinion.

 

[hanshi]

This >>> "There is no such thing as too much gun" (Hanshi above) <<<

On this I'll just mention that I've read my Robert Ruark and Peter Capstick.

As for bears, I love 'em....from a safe distance. The average tyro absolutely, positively cannot conceive of the enormous power of a bear, and that includes the blacky. The Griz just likes to let humans know who's the true boss and has a love affair with kicking people a$$. They also occasionally like to snack after imparting their wisdom to any upright walking creature toting a pistol, etc. This is how they have their jolly-good time on boring days.

The black is, of course, responsible for more attacks; and if one ever follows you more than likely it's because he wants to "munch" but on your dime. Forget the "Disney" stuff, it ain't what happens. Some of you know all this first hand already. I won't shoot a bear, I like them far too much and I would feel bad afterwards. I've had my up-close-and-personal with blacky and he was the consummate gentleman, that time.

As has been recommended many times before, the best grizzly defense is to go with a partner and carry a .22LR pistol; the pistol is for your partner and definitely NOT Ol' Three-Toes. And any game animal you drop ain't dead until your tobacco pipe is empty.

 

[sportster73hp]

I have carried 50, 54, and 58 ml roundball guns for deer . Still have killed more with a 300WM and 375HH bolt guns. Maybe overkill but they both shoot flat just in case I miss judge the distance.
I think the 54 is a good choice for Pennsylvania white tail. Sold both of mine so the 58 will be in the woods for now

 

[longcruise]

I met a fellow in Alaska who had killed an attacking Kodiak Bear with a 6" Buck Knife.

Pretty sure if you hang around in enough bars in AK you will hear some crazy stories. A few might even be true. Not saying your story is untrue, but with only two weeks spent there it became clear that everyone who lives in AK is a bear expert and few of them agree with the other experts.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Shotgun vs pistol for bears:
A shotgun is defiantly better as it is easier to get the big cargo to the target more efficiently more quickly. However if you lay it on the ground or lean it against a tree stream side while you fish, take pictures or work on a fence then it is not very much help. I’ve seen lots of films in which this was the case.
On the rare occasion when the wife and I hiked in Grizzly areas I carried a .475 Linbaugh it could propel 440 grains at 1200 FPS. it was a Freedom Arms 83 with the 4.75 bbl, and concealable . It was a lot of gun and too much for me as I aged.

I am still looking for some opinions on.40 PRB on Texas deer in this thread?

Over half of the states allow for a .40 caliber patched ball to be used for deer hunting. The .40 can be pushed out of the barrel quite quickly, but remember that the weight of a .385" diameter to 0.395" diameter ball is only 85.6 grains to 92.4 grains. Being round, those light balls lose velocity quickly. Historically, the most common calibers in surviving longrifles that don't appear to have been freshed out, is .44 caliber to .49 caliber. This was for the killing of game to feed families, and for defending one's life & property East of the Mississippi River.

A .40 caliber patched ball in the hands of a hunter that will NEVER take a problematic shot should not be an issue. Especially, if shots are ABSOLUTELY limited to under 50 yards. And, if YOUR RIFLE is capable of sending a patched ball down range at top speed, which is to say upwards of, or exceeding 2000 f.p.s.

And, a lot of rifles won't achieve their best accuracy at top speeds. My personal opinion, and you know what that's worth, is it is going to be the rare shooter that can field a .40 caliber patched ball rifle, and have the discipline to NEVER take the problematic shot. Especially, if that once in a lifetime animal shows up unexpectedly.

That's why most experienced patched ball shooters say go with a larger caliber. It gives the hunter some leeway in his/her shot placement.

 

[BS]

There are those who always argue more is better and will think you’re a lunatic and taking their wife’s personal safety in your hands if you tow anything more than a 10’ lawnmower trailer (empty) with anything less than a 3500 Diesel Dually and who wouldn’t hunt Elk with anything less than a 460 Weatherby Magnum. I’m not that guy. You’ll never hear a poofy virtue signaling sermon from me but my personal minimum for Whitetail is .45rb. Lots of experienced hunters argue for .50 as a minimum. I might be that guy as well if my old Pop didnt shoot deer on our farm with his .45 plains rifle with a 30 yard drop rate of 100% in the past 75 deer or so. Based on his experience I occasionally use one of my .45s. I hate an animal to suffer unnecessarily. Your Texas deer are much smaller than ours and perhaps it would be enough but I would think your mass is getting small enough you’re risking the rb redirecting after clipping ribs. Personal opinion.

Bob, what do you consider the 460 Weatherby Mag of muzzleloaders?

 

[R.J.Bruce]

On this I'll just mention that I've read my Robert Ruark and Peter Capstick.

As for bears, I love 'em....from a safe distance. The average tyro absolutely, positively cannot conceive of the enormous power of a bear, and that includes the blacky. The Griz just likes to let humans know who's the true boss and has a love affair with kicking people a$$. They also occasionally like to snack after imparting their wisdom to any upright walking creature toting a pistol, etc. This is how they have their jolly-good time on boring days.

The black is, of course, responsible for more attacks; and if one ever follows you more than likely it's because he wants to "munch" but on your dime. Forget the "Disney" stuff, it ain't what happens. Some of you know all this first hand already. I won't shoot a bear, I like them far too much and I would feel bad afterwards. I've had my up-close-and-personal with blacky and he was the consummate gentleman, that time.

As has been recommended many times before, the best grizzly defense is to go with a partner and carry a .22LR pistol; the pistol is for your partner and definitely NOT Ol' Three-Toes. And any game animal you drop ain't dead until your tobacco pipe is empty.

I was trout fishing on a little stream not far from my cabin in Greenwater, Washington one day. I had three small fish on a stringer, cleaned & gutted, and was walking up an old logging road back home thinking random thoughts, when I heard what sounded like a hog snorting and snuffling just feet away in the dense underbrush that had grown up after the stand had been logged out years ago.

It took about a minute, and 20-30 yards of walking up the logging road before my lizard brain kicked in, and my curiosity at "(why was a pig roaming around in the forest?)" to "(that's not a pig, DUMMY, that's a damn black bear, and he/she wants the damn fish!!!!)"

So, I quickly laid the trout on the side of the road, and hustled my a$$ back to the cabin. I got about 50 yards up the logging road when the bear crashed out of the brush, & snarfed up those three small fish. Fortunately, it did not elect to pursue me for further gastronomic satisfaction.

LUCKY ME. LUCKY DAY. GOD WAS ON MY SIDE THAT DAY.

 

[Bob McBride]

Bob, what do you consider the 460 Weatherby Mag of muzzleloaders?

 

[shorthair]

As Grimord says it's about shot placement not caliber. a Grizzly bear has been taken down with nothing more than a .22lr, not something I'd want to face one with but it was taken down with one shot behind the ear.

Remember WDM Bell did fine work on several hundred elephants with his little .264 unmentionable because he could place his shots where he needed.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Only ever had two run ins with black bear one was trout fishing in WVA. 5 nice brookies and a antique chain stringer staked in the creek only 20 yards from camp got late on me so I placed the fish with intentions of a early morning breakfast for myself and buddy, the lab was restless that night ( we both had side arms and a riot gun loaded with slugs in the tent) the next morning I knew why, the other was deer hunting a sow and three cubs came in where I was hunting, watched them a bit and slowly backed out the long way around. I carry a 44 mag. when deer hunting and a large bore rifle (for unmentionable seasons) Black powder seasons deer hunting a .62 cal. rifle and a ruger old army, I like the big bores. Getting too damn old too be a fighting bears with a knife.