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I don't like to use a ball starter.

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We all have our own capabilities, as with technique's where as I can and consistently cut holes all day long with the modern rifles at 100 yds. and am not happy with a 1 in. group at 300-400yds. Always striving for tighter groups. Ring steel plates of various dimensions out to 6oo yds. I feel we must realize the capabilities of the muzzle loaders we are so fond of. As to the loading applications we vary as how a individual shooter loads, why would one shooter frown on another if they use a short starter or even what they patch with.. These are the things that make us unique and let us share the objective of knowledge and what works for me and perhaps you. For me the objective is to wring out the best loading procedure for the best accuracy with the muzzle loader while at the same time staying a ethical hunter, I would not attempt to make shots with a muzzle loader that I know can be achieved at distances with a modern rifle. Prime example is right now working on a 450 bushmaster that will be used at 200-250 yds. or less. After much research on this particular rifle the decision was made to as to sights and other limitations incurred with the caliber. Same issues should concern us with the old weapons. Kestrel should be careful of making challenges you never know will be on the line next to you, as a competive shooter with pistol, revolver and hi power rifle I like the challenge and it is always nice to leave the line a winner but if not search out the winner and talk to them you might just learn a thing or two. Never challenge it will make you look foolish, Not trying to bust anyone's chops just trying to shed some light. As the old saying goes be wary of the shooter whom only has one weapon.
 
First off, I own one rifle. Secondly, I'm tired of people saying you can't do this or shoot like that, if you don't do it this way or gotta do it like that. Find out what works for you and yours and have fun with it. When it counts, on the shooting line, in the field or in a life and death situation, I'm am very confident in my firearms and capabilities. I've put in the work. I enjoy competition of all types. I also really enjoy just getting together with friends to make smoke.
Shooting is like golf...you'll never master it.
 
why would one shooter frown on another if they use a short starter or
For the record, as I know I come down on the no short/ball starter side,,,,, I do not "frown on," another shooter for using one. I do frown on the excuses people make for this, and many other objects, being used in a historical context when no evidence exists for it. I do frown on people insulting my ability and intelligence to suggest that people who choose to work up a load that doesn't require a starter don't care about accuracy, which would seem to imply that we are unethical as hunters.
I use a delrin rod to load at the range (and to clean the gun at home), in fact two, one that was left full length for extra grip area if needed and one cut to fit the gun so I can reload the same way I would in the field. However, I make no excuses that it could be historically accurate. You won't hear, "if they'd a had it they'd a used it," from my lips. Or, "they had the materials so logically the would have made one." (I'm sorry, but this last one is almost dumber than the 1st)
I didn't get involved in this topic (which I now regret), i had ignored it for a while to argue for or against short starters, I don't care, the lame justifications for trying to claim that they would have been commonly used by everyone with a gun drew me in.

Short start away,,,,,,, just don't get distracted explaining/justifying the starter's historical accuracy to the shooter next to you, and forget to push the ball the rest of the way down.....
 
Well, Brokennock, I believe that what I said was ".. in my experience" a loose patch-ball combination was less accurate than a tight one. I believe I also said that a loose fit combo can, and sometimes does, move towards the muzzle end of the bore while hunting if the piece is carried with the muzzle low. If that happens it can lead to a ringed barrel or even a burst one. I said those things because I've seen them happen. I've been doing this ML thing for half a century or more and learned a little about what works and what doesn't and (sometimes) why that's so. I was simply trying to pass on some of what I've learned to help save others from having to learn for themselves. I did NOT say anything about anyone spraying bullets around the countryside, nor anything close to that. If you took what I said as some kind of attack on you or your way of doing things, please reconsider. It wasn't.
 
I cut a cone into a Green Mountain barrel and I have not lost any accuracy from my Lancaster , Pa long rifle. Also, had Getz cut a cone into the barrel I use on my Jaeger. Both rifles shoot as good as any of my other long rifles that are not coned. Age has become a problem with starting the patch/ball combination so I rely on the short starter more so now than in the before time.
 
We all have our own capabilities, as with technique's where as I can and consistently cut holes all day long with the modern rifles at 100 yds. and am not happy with a 1 in. group at 300-400yds. Always striving for tighter groups. Ring steel plates of various dimensions out to 6oo yds. I feel we must realize the capabilities of the muzzle loaders we are so fond of. As to the loading applications we vary as how a individual shooter loads, why would one shooter frown on another if they use a short starter or even what they patch with.. These are the things that make us unique and let us share the objective of knowledge and what works for me and perhaps you. For me the objective is to wring out the best loading procedure for the best accuracy with the muzzle loader while at the same time staying a ethical hunter, I would not attempt to make shots with a muzzle loader that I know can be achieved at distances with a modern rifle. Prime example is right now working on a 450 bushmaster that will be used at 200-250 yds. or less. After much research on this particular rifle the decision was made to as to sights and other limitations incurred with the caliber. Same issues should concern us with the old weapons. Kestrel should be careful of making challenges you never know will be on the line next to you, as a competive shooter with pistol, revolver and hi power rifle I like the challenge and it is always nice to leave the line a winner but if not search out the winner and talk to them you might just learn a thing or two. Never challenge it will make you look foolish, Not trying to bust anyone's chops just trying to shed some light. As the old saying goes be wary of the shooter whom only has one weapon.
I use a short starter, and believe ‘loading mallets’ were short started of the past. I think some smart boys used things that we would call short started before they are recognized.
Black Hand, who used to contribute on this forum a lot, found a reference to short started in 1847 or 49 as I remember. It was the earliest he could find after searching for it.
I’m of the opinion, and it is an opinion, that sans a patent or some such a item that slips in to general used was used before it became general.
When I go to shoot at a range I shoot in an historic fashion ... sort of.
My rifle gun has a modern brass tip, and I screw on a modern cleaning jag. I swab ‘tween shots.
My smoothies have just a plain rod, and I clean with a tow worm. And I can take time hunting to do that.
At a range I shoot my smoothies with a wooden rod tipped with a modern jag to swab ‘tween shots.
At a range or an event I talk about loading. When I have my rifle I will show my starter... but say that the tool was from a later date, maybe thirty years after the date of my rifle. Or take a smoothie that I load just with rod. I often shoot a PRB in my smoothies but shoot with wad and demonstrate a wad for public, even the interested guy at a range.
No one has any right to say a person can’t, or at least should not use one. Only that it’s not an historic tool.
Every one at some point, even the most’ dyed in the capote stitch counter’ has something wrong in his outfit.
The question is how you feel about it.
Are you on a path to ‘as close as we can get’ or are ‘this works and I’m going to do it historic or not’ and importantly how you portray it to an interested party who has little or no knowledge on historic stuff.
A TC Hawken or a GPR is not functional different then a bench copy of a ARW rifle. Their good guns and shoot well, but we should admit what they are and what they are not.
No ones a ‘bad guy’ for shooting one.
 
Any time anyone comes along and says "there's no evidence that such-and-such was done or used in this period of history" there's always a number of people who seem to take great personal offense to such statements, and begin in with the "who are you to tell me what to do!" type "arguments", when no one is telling them that they can't do something. It's a strange personal philosophy, but I better not get into what I see as the origin of it... :D
 
Again, I think the particular gun should dictate what load, what procedure one should use. If MY gun was accurate with a loose patch/ball combo that I didnt need to use a short starter with, I wouldn't use one. But I would never say "I'm just not using one, period." Not all guns can be made to shoot THEIR best with a loose patch/ball no matter how much expiramentation one does at the range. The only alternative would be searching for and buying a gun that does. I like my particular gun, IT likes a tight load that pretty much requires a short starter, so I use one. It's just that simple IMO.
 
Wow... up to 9 pages of debate over something as basic as a short starter ! Sometimes it's amazing how a small difference in loading technique can be picked apart in such detail ! Use one or not....it's your choice !!
 
My first short starter is to be delivered today from TOTW. Looking forward to trying it out, especially in light of the ins/outs shared in this thread.
 
I will throw one more comment in to the fire, if we choke up on the rammer to start the patch, ball combo are we not in a sense using a modified short starter?
 
I will throw one more comment in to the fire, if we choke up on the rammer to start the patch, ball combo are we not in a sense using a modified short starter?

I'll fan that flame by saying that a ball starter gives a mechanical loading advantage to anyone who may be young, weak, handicapped, old, arthritic, or in any other way in need of assistance when trying to seat the ball.
 
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