I Find It Strange

[FlintlockJonny]

i bought a 3x9 scope at a yard sale for 3 bucks, zip tied it to my flintlock pistol, propped the one end up with a toothpick to sight it in and its sweet. so it only lasted 3 shots, but I did it, because I could and because I can. I don't care what anyone thinks. I should have taken pictures.

 

[Swampman]

"In Pennsylvania I needed a flinter to hunt in the late season."

That was the one logical reason I could think of last night.

 

[DanChamberlain]

Another logical reason would be that the person who does so, could care less what you think. Now, to consider that illogical would be the height of arrogance.

Regards,

Dan

 

[Dave K]

Thanks Zonie, that is what I am referring to, references. I don't have any books of Hawken's, but that doesn't mean there isn't documentation on their history. I read what I read last night in the stack of magazines by my chair and found it interesting. When I find the article I will post it here. The author (from my memory) had just said that in still in 1970s there were no known flint Hawken guns documented, but since that writing, there has been three discovered. I don't know where he got his information, I was just passing on what I read.

 

[cowpoke1955]

Zonie,
Thanks for your imput. Dave, hang in there. It makes sense that the early models were flintlocks. Some folks in here stated that most Hawkens were percussion, no argument there. But to say that there were NO flintlock Hawken, because they have not seem one or heard of one, shame on you :shake: . Next thing you know someone is going to say there is no flying saucers, no Big Foot, no Easter Bunny and no Santa Claus :rotf: .

 

[wildeagle]

Well guys I guess I'll show my ignorance here. I remember reading a small side note in Kindig's book. Wolfgang Haga had a brother , Nicholas who settled in Hanover Pa. , both were gunsmiths. He (Nicholas ) died there leaving two sons Nicholas(II) and Christian , both grew up to become gunsmiths. Christian's last name later came to be spelled " HAWKEN " , he was the father of the Hawken family of gunsmiths , which included the well-known St. Louis gunsmiths Jacob and Samuel. Now I may be way off base here , but I seem to remember that Christian moved from Hanover to Ohio , could this have been during the transition period between flint and percusion? Being that Samuel and Jacob came from such a prolific gunsmithing backrounds. The time period between Ohio and St. Louis might be when the two brothers started developing the " HAWKEN " style and remnants of the flint period carried over into this development. It might not be considered a true hawken but maybe thats where the the three " flint hawkens " got their birth. I do not profess to be near as scholarly as some on this forum , I could be way out of line , it is just that Hanover is only a stones throw from where I live and these thoughts of Kindig's got me to wondering. But with my small brain I can't afford to wander much or I will get lost. :redface: :surrender:

 

[redwing]

The flinter did hold out in the west in some cases up until the rim fires and center fires. Not only was their no shortage of chert and flint they could be primed very fast. They could be cleared faster than a nipple and cap. The early nipples were often broken. In the space of time the cap was not around very long compared to the flint.
Many folks have studied such things. Those who have done so think that if the modern metals for frizzens had been around the cap would have been less popular. The constant winds in the west are the problem for weak sparking locks. Todays rifles when used out the wind must throw heavy sparks up to 5" to be reliable. The wind in the Rocky Mtns. is far more of a problem than rain. :hmm:

 

[faw3]

Thanks for putting that up Zonie, long day in hospital and didnt want to spend a hour copying stuff, along ith what ou put up they as well as our Cooner and Don Stith (is that right Im about blind by now??) has said that some of the "old timers" wouldnt trust a cap (or anything new) on a rifle that is keeping them alive 1000 miles away from caps or getting some part, just because we havent seen a Hawken from 1840s that was built flint dont mean much,most Hawken's got worn out and chunked,or traded for WHY A FLINT T/C,GPR or whatever?? because ya can, if your like me I'd never shot one and got a chance at a new CVA that was sold on market I took it with a BIG thank you and it gets workedout as much if not more than my uh's or Hawken's. Wish I had the time and money to get a "right one" well maybe I will if my health holds a few months. Fred :hatsoff:

 

DaveK, I would have to do a lot of digging in my references to document my statements, and right now I don't have the time--I was hoping that one of the Hawken experts would pipe up in support, but they are apparently not reading this thread. The story of the Hawken family is well documented. It has been discussed here before. It is an old rifle making family dating back to eastern PA in the 1750s--and possibly back to the old world before that. The early Hawkens (Hachens, Hagas, etc) made flintlocks of course. Most likely the apprentice J&S Hawkens boys did too. There is no good evidence that they made the classic half-stock Hawken rifle that is the one we are talking about--the plains rifle--in St Louis in flintlock. The ones that want a flintlock "Hawken" as we have come to understand that term [referring to the classic half stock], engage in wishful thinking and speculation to support their wishes. One of the driving forces behind this was the snobbery of the flintlock shooters, looking down on percussion rifles as somehow not pure, pushing some folks into converting their percussion Hawkens, etc to flint "to keep up with the Joneses" so to speak. Now, Lemans and other rifles made for the Indian trade WERE made in flintlock through the percussion age. There are numerous books on the Hawken and its kin. There are experts on this site and on the American Longrifles site (eg, Don Stith) who could probably quote you passages--I just remember the basic stuff. The Hawkens boys DID make flintlocks, as I said in my earlier post, just not in the classic plains rifle form.

 

[AeroncaTAL]

Now, Lemans and other rifles made for the Indian trade WERE made in flintlock through the percussion age.

I've been reluctant to chime in on this. I seem to remember seeing a picture of an original half stock plains type flintlock somewhere, but haven't been able to chase it down. Maybe it was a Leman or something similar. The fact is, half stocks were produced in the flint era, so a flint GPR would fall into period correct. My two cents...
Scott

 

[Fullstock58]

It's foolish to think that there were no Hawkens in flint, Sam and Jake were making American style rifes in flint before the "Hawken" got it's start. The book "The Hawken Rifle, It's place in history" states that there are no "Hawken" rifles documented before 1831. Thats at the end of the Flint era and the begaining of the percussing age.

We all know that change is hard and slow, many people would not have wanted percussion, as flints are free and easy to get, not so with percussion caps. Once the percussion system proved itself and caps were much easier to come by, then most likely a lot of flint guns would have been converted to percussion.

Hawkens rifles were tools, and everyone always after a better tool. Sam and Jake built rifles for there customers and as such would have built flinters if there customers wanted one, and I'm sure many did, it's just a shame that very few survived, if any.

 

[Dave K]

No expert here, but I am sure as you are, that the Hawken boys would have built what the customer wanted. If that customer was headed for a trap line in the Rockies, he very well may have preferred a flinter over the reguirement of needing perc. caps. Many people did not what to be owned by the store that reguired them to purchase caps. Not only were perc. caps a "usually" better ignition, but they also required the owner of that gun to be customer to buying those caps. As I mentioned several times earlier, the author of the article I was reading, wanted to build a Hawken. Now the story was about the St. Louis style and I will repeat what I read, when he started accumulating parts to build this gun and build this gun in the 1970's there were NO documented flint Hawkens found at that time. Since then there have been 3 uncovered. Since I don't have time to share documentation as well as you do, I will let it go at that and I see no reason to beleive the writer was not relaying what his research had uncovered. Also, think about it. If a mountain man was headed to the Rockies and was carrying a flinter, in those rough days in the field, how many of these tools (guns) of survival would have survived? We will wait for the experts to chime in since we have no need to research our own beliefs on our own.

 

[redwing]

Many of the trappers were in the Gold Fields after 1849. We know they traded their rifles for tool or made tools from the barrels.
Trappers who did not want to work in the dirt went in to the protection trade. They formed companies to kill off the NDNs in places like California. The merchants paid them for this work.
It is here that we find talk of the new Sharps being used{Paper Ctg.}. The stories from that time reflect a great love affair for the Sharps that would remain in the west until the end of the Frontier.
Most of the old rifles I have seen over the years family guns, were eastern rifles. They were mostly from the South and were long rifles. Some cut down some rebored to larger calibers. I have never found a Hawken of any kind in these old ranch guns. :thumbsup:

 

All of this "I'm sure that they woulda.." Hawken type talk is just that wishful thinking, not evidence. Sure, there were flintlocks in use well into the percussion era, documentable. In the southern highlands flintlock longrifles were used at least until the Civil War, during and after which most folks switched to percussion or cartridge guns. Hawkens were not as common on the frontier as we would like to think (we've been over that topic too) and they were mainly in the percussion era and were mainly the "top dog" new fangled percussion plains rifle of the period. The Hawkens family made flintlock longrifles in their early days. There were plenty of others that continued to make flintlocks (Henry, Leman, etc)for the western trade. Show me one classic Hawken flintlock. Just one--don't need three--one will do. The only one I have read about was a fullstock percussion "that appeared to have been converted from flint". Well, shucks, the first rifle I made looks like that too, but it has always been a percussion--I just used the 'easy to use' barrel and nipple.

 

[cowpoke1955]

This may be why Lyman refuses the call their GPR a "Hawken". I read many of years ago that Lyman claimed only the rifles made by the Hawken brothers are Hawkens. That's why they call theirs a Plains Rifle. CVA made a simular rifle called a Mountain Rifle. There were several gun makers who made simular designed rifles. It was documented that several flintlock "Mountain" or "Plains" rifle were made for Indain trade. I'm sure some of the poorer trappers used them also. Maybe there is no documents supporting the flints, but there is no document against the thought either. Let's stop beating a dead horse :yakyak: . None of us were there and nobody can prove one way or the other. Shoot flints if you like flints. Shoot caps if you like caps. I like them both. Be happy :thumbsup: .

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

So I guess my half stock Hawken matchlock isn't P/C....? :rotf: :blah:

 

[Swampman]

Thanks to those who provided some insightful comment on my muse....

For me, things must be logical....

 

[JCW]

I find it strange that this sort of thing would matter enough to start a thread. As a matter of fact I just found a T/C flinter for $125.00 at a yard sale. Yep, you guessed it, I bought it. And no, the fact that none of my BP guns are "historically correct" to someone else doesn't matter much to me at all. All I know is that I enjoy burning real black powder.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

**SNIP**
Next thing you know someone is going to say there is no flying saucers, no Big Foot, no Easter Bunny and no Santa Claus :rotf: .

I know there's a Santa Claus! I get dressed up as him every year and the kids all tell me what they want. Haven't had any ask for a flintlock rifle yet, but I'm hoping...

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[Swampman]

$125.00 was a fair price.