India Barrel Failure

[brushblind]

I've had zero problems with my military/access/heritage sea svc pistol 9"

my usual load is 40 grn 3f and patched .610 ball.

I would not think twice aboutView attachment 332832its ability to handle 80 grns and a double ball proof load.

camo

I hope that's not a crack in the breach plug. It looks like more than a witness mark it might be, but I haven't seen one like that.

 

[brushblind]

It's kind of like buying a Chevy Vega and expecting Volvo quality and durability.

Just like the Vega the India made guns will give you the experience at a modest price. If an individual decides to use his Vega in a demolition derby or overload his India made gun in reckless disregard that's on them. The India made guns I own have been tested by myself or a trusted dealer. Safety first always!

 

[brushblind]

lol

okay look at the list of other buyers on that page......

Pentagon?????

now those Outlander lads across the pond have to have it right now !!!!

guess it's up to us to deem safe and usable then......no SAAMI specs on this !!!!

camo

I think the guns on Outlander are Pedersoli's.

 

[FlinterNick]

lol

okay look at the list of other buyers on that page......

Pentagon?????

now those Outlander lads across the pond have to have it right now !!!!

guess it's up to us to deem safe and usable then......no SAAMI specs on this !!!!

camo

nobody is saying Indian guns are not safe, I’m just saying they are junk. Horrible quality… end of line. Take care of your guns, always be safe.

 

[FlinterNick]

I think the guns on Outlander are Pedersoli's.

And a Kibler Rifle

 

[Sidney Smith]

My opinion is, any company that sells fully assembled, unvented "guns" are not doing so soley to get around whatever import laws there are concerning live firearms. Theyre doing so mostly to remove liability from themselves should somebody decide to vent their gun and attempt to fire it. That tells me they most likely are aware that their products are whoefully substandard.

You have to ask yourself whether that lamp post should be turned into a live fire weapon. Hey, I can create a firearm out of a piece of pipe with a screw on end cap, drill a vent in it, load it up and touch it off with a campfire lighter. Is it safe? Is it a trustworthy firearm? Maybe yes to both questions, most likely not.

 

[camoloc]

My opinion is, any company that sells fully assembled, unvented "guns" are not doing so soley to get around whatever import laws there are concerning live firearms. Theyre doing so mostly to remove liability from themselves should somebody decide to vent their gun and attempt to fire it. That tells me they most likely are aware that their products are whoefully substandard.

You have to ask yourself whether that lamp post should be turned into a live fire weapon. Hey, I can create a firearm out of a piece of pipe with a screw on end cap, drill a vent in it, load it up and touch it off with a campfire lighter. Is it safe? Is it a trustworthy firearm? Maybe yes to both questions, most likely not.

just an example.

camo

 

[FlinterNick]

To use an argument from "Animal House" . . .
If a barrel from company A is bad and therefore company B produces bad barrels one can assume all barrels from country X are bad. If all barrels from company X are bad then shouldn't it be assumed all barrels are bad. Thus the single failure must condemn all black powder barrels regardless of type or manufacture. . .

Yes, they care about the quality. They do not sell them at 100% profit, in fact it is a small percentage. Considering each gun is taken apart, lock made to work, and vented saying they are not inspected is foolish. Some are stained some aren't, depends on the importer. Those that are are taken down to bare wood and refinished. For years Veteran personally proofed every gun they sold, this was to insure quality control not as an official proof stamp.

Yes and no. They are filling a void where there is no competition. I would love to see other options. Most who have and use them are very happy with what they have for the price. Many are frustrated they are so cheap and seek to discredit them while providing no alternatives. Sort of like a cheap car next to an expensive, they both get you where you want to go but one is far more comfortable. Only with these guns it's more like cheap car or no car.

Mike

Nobody is condemning ALL Indian Made barrels except for you and a few others. The quoting of one bad test condemns them all is a narrative supported by you, nobody is saying this, not even the people that did the proof test are saying that.

The barrel failure is a statistic that reinforces the perception of poor quality.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I contacted SOC Musket Co. and they swear to their Products..

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Dont Worry be happy....get a derringer Kit

 

[Commodore Swab]

I admire the compliment assuming I am mike but must correct you that I am not he.

Mike

Nobody is condemning ALL Indian Made barrels except for you and a few others. The quoting of one bad test condemns them all is a narrative supported by you, nobody is saying this, not even the people that did the proof test are saying that.

The barrel failure is a statistic that reinforces the perception of poor quality.

I have not condemned any india guns.

I have said that you should not hold other companies to blame for another's failure.

I don't know how you can come up with ANY statistic without knowing manufacture, numbers produced, numbers imported ectect. All you know is one barrel (pistol, small percentage of production) from an unknown company sold by unknown importer was "tested" and failed. We do know it was not the same company that supplies the vast majority of India imports.


"The barrel failure is a statistic that reinforces the perception of poor quality." -Nick

I call BS. Using one company as a measure of another's quality is simply wrong.

 

[FlinterNick]

Dont Worry be happy....get a derringer Kit

I admire the compliment assuming I am mike but must correct you that I am not he.


I have not condemned any india guns.

I have said that you should not hold other companies to blame for another's failure.

I don't know how you can come up with ANY statistic without knowing manufacture, numbers produced, numbers imported ectect. All you know is one barrel (pistol, small percentage of production) from an unknown company sold by unknown importer was "tested" and failed. We do know it was not the same company that supplies the vast majority of India imports.


"The barrel failure is a statistic that reinforces the perception of poor quality." -Nick

I call BS. Using one company as a measure of another's quality is simply wrong.

I know who you are, I’ll respect your desire to be anonymous but i will address you by your first name, if i were you, I’d probably do the same given your circumstances.

FYI don’t come asking me for assistance in Alafia… Mike.

I’m holding companies to blame in the USA for poor customer service, has nothing to do with the guns. Someone buys a gun from you, and you can’t deliver pay them back..(Middlesex trading in particular).

There are multiple of statistics of issues with Indian made guns, just ask most gunsmiths in the USA. Clay Smith, Paul Ackerman, Jess Melot, Dave Person. The proof is in the pudding, regardless of of a barrel failure or two, the quality of the product and quality control is just not there. If you sell a gun that is need of immediate service, it should be refundable and exchanged.

The only companies I recommend anyone deal with is Veteran Arms, and Loyalist Arms good people, they could sell denix guns for all i care, they do a nice job and their nice people.

 

[shorthair]

Side note, India has the best machining capability in the world right now.

I might be wrong but I thought that was the Japanese currently.

 

[RAEDWALD]

My opinion is, any company that sells fully assembled, unvented "guns" are not doing so soley to get around whatever import laws there are concerning live firearms. Theyre doing so mostly to remove liability from themselves should somebody decide to vent their gun and attempt to fire it. That tells me they most likely are aware that their products are whoefully substandard.

You have to ask yourself whether that lamp post should be turned into a live fire weapon. Hey, I can create a firearm out of a piece of pipe with a screw on end cap, drill a vent in it, load it up and touch it off with a campfire lighter. Is it safe? Is it a trustworthy firearm? Maybe yes to both questions, most likely not.

Indian muzzleloaders are classed as full firearms with all the associated export paperwork etc. if the touch hole is drilled. Hence they leave that for the recipients to do. Otherwise the costs would make the price too high. Indeed very difficult to achieve at all given Indian laws and bureaucracy.

It is to allow free export not a lack of confidence in the firearm. In India and in Europe they must pass a government proof test to be allowed to be sold in the country so all those being sold in Europe have passed a proper proof test. I cannot answer for the USA which does not have such a mechanism to test guns before they are sold to the public so they might be of any quality with the only legal protection being suing someone after you have suffered from a catastrophic failure (or your heirs). The Indian muzzle loaders routinely pass even the most stringent proofs of Britain and Germany. The manufacturers are confident that they will pass proof.

If they drilled the touch hole before exporting the guns then they simply could not export them. Indian live firearm export laws make that untenable and the cost would be more than double if they could actually export them and the typical Indian bureaucracy delays and administration would leave the manufacturers funding a huge delay between paying the cost of manufacture and receiving payments from sales.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

Indian muzzleloaders are classed as full firearms with all the associated export paperwork etc. if the touch hole is drilled. Hence they leave that for the recipients to do. Otherwise the costs would make the price too high. Indeed very difficult to achieve at all given Indian laws and bureaucracy.

It is to allow free export not a lack of confidence in the firearm. In India and in Europe they must pass a government proof test to be allowed to be sold in the country so all those being sold in Europe have passed a proper proof test. I cannot answer for the USA which does not have such a mechanism to test guns before they are sold to the public so they might be of any quality with the only legal protection being suing someone after you have suffered from a catastrophic failure (or your heirs). The Indian muzzle loaders routinely pass even the most stringent proofs of Britain and Germany. The manufacturers are confident that they will pass proof.

If they drilled the touch hole before exporting the guns then they simply could not export them. Indian live firearm export laws make that untenable and the cost would be more than double if they could actually export them and the typical Indian bureaucracy delays and administration would leave the manufacturers funding a huge delay between paying the cost of manufacture and receiving payments from sales.

In any manufacturing process there are products that simply won't meet the QC standards. Knowing a barrel is going to be proof tested provides incentive to "get it right".

Knowing the barrel isn't going to be proof tested is a whole 'nother ball game.

I'm leaning with the opinion of Sidney Smith. Double the cost? What's your vision, hand, or life worth?

 

[CVA Enthusiast]

This one I got to take with grain of salt and a shot of lime juice, it is funky I have short started balls before and then all it did was leave the barrel with a funky sound. Energy takes the path of least resistance, for the barrel to do THAT more of a blocked barrel. Everything Black Powder on the you tube, busts and shatters a lot of the old Myth, I grew up in fear of. Point of fact 99% of the stuff I have heard on black powder turns out to be rumor, lies.

 

[FlinterNick]

This one I got to take with grain of salt and a shot of lime juice, it is funky I have short started balls before and then all it did was leave the barrel with a funky sound. Energy takes the path of least resistance, for the barrel to do THAT more of a blocked barrel. Everything Black Powder on the you tube, busts and shatters a lot of the old Myth, I grew up in fear of. Point of fact 99% of the stuff I have heard on black powder turns out to be rumor, lies.

i doubt the proof house short started a proof test.

The reason why that barrel burst is because of how it was made, it was likely not tempered correctly or had some weld brittleness from the forging process. All it takes is a bad butt weld and the barrel can burst too. Forged steel barrels need to be heat treated correctly.

Here is a bad butt weld on an Indian barrel, you can see the filler metal being pushed outward.

 

[FlinterNick]

In any manufacturing process there are products that simply won't meet the QC standards. Knowing a barrel is going to be proof tested provides incentive to "get it right".

Knowing the barrel isn't going to be proof tested is a whole 'nother ball game.

I'm leaning with the opinion of Sidney Smith. Double the cost? What's your vision, hand, or life worth?

Agree

 

[CVA Enthusiast]

i doubt the proof house short started a proof test.

The reason why that barrel burst is because of how it was made, it was likely not tempered correctly or had some weld brittleness from the forging process. All it takes is a bad butt weld and the barrel can burst too. Forged steel barrels need to be heat treated correctly.

Here is a bad butt weld on an Indian barrel, you can see the filler metal being pushed outward.

WE can disagree, I have short started and NEVER had that happen, Not even so much as a "Bulged Barrel" I am saying it TAKES more than that to cause that kind of destruction. Either bad photo shop, or someone deliberately packed the barrel with an obstruction. even barrel brittleness energy takes the path of least resistance ball and patch are the weakest point. Just Science

 

[PathfinderNC]

WE can disagree, I have short started and NEVER had that happen, Not even so much as a "Bulged Barrel" I am saying it TAKES more than that to cause that kind of destruction. Either bad photo shop, or someone deliberately packed the barrel with an obstruction. even barrel brittleness energy takes the path of least resistance ball and patch are the weakest point. Just Science

Here we go again