India Barrel Failure

[Frontier's]

So the company buys junk and then when they get it, they make it better quality junk

 

[hawkeye2]

It's kind of like buying a Chevy Vega and expecting Volvo quality and durability.

 

[springfield art]

So what is the conclusion??? Do we like inda made guns or don't we?

It's half and half!

 

[Brokennock]

So what is the conclusion??? Do we like inda made guns or don't we?

I don't like them just because they cause ridiculous threads like what this has become.

 

[springfield art]

If a subject is of interest to some, it's not ridiculous to discuss. I will say, most of the India muskets are used by enactors, NOT by LIVE FIRE guys. Same thing with the Pedersolis, Armi Sports, etc., the majority are fired as blank enactor guns.
Those live fire guys are a separate category from the 'weekend re-enactor' types that don't clean their muskets from event to event. Live fire rocks! With a newby enactor wanting to get a kit together, and a Charleville or Bess costing Two Grand or more (shipping is $60! plus tax if that's figured in!), one can see how used muskets are heavily sought at auctions, etc.

 

[Brokennock]

It isn't a matter of interest or no interest that has made this topic ridiculous.
It is the fact that both sides refuse to see the valid points of the other side. Also that one side flat out refuses to look at the issue with any perspective regarding how many of these guns are out there versus how many blow up, especially given that the "proof load" that blew the barrel in question (going along with the narrative that the load blew the barrel despite it looking like the result of an obstruction) is by definition, and overload, makes this topic currently ridiculous.

 

[springfield art]

OK, I did 'get' that the 'antis' are permanently locked into their opinions. You have a good point. I like looking at the subject with an open mind. I have a beautiful Bess by Rajasthan Armory (since re-named & re-organized) from the 1980's, but know that there are terrible looking India guns out there, too. Thanks.

 

[PathfinderNC]

I think for certain applications (such as reenactments) that these are perfectly suitable: a noise and smoke maker shooting unwaded blanks. The cost is low (reenactors spend vastly more on clothing and other accompaniments), and their “historical accuracy” seems as off the mark as any other modern repro. I could even see restocking with better wood as an option.
With the 250th Anniversary of the AWI approaching, we are seeing new folks joining and I’m pretty sure the musket market will see a boost.
Another thought (which may have already been raised and I overlooked it) - would installing a barrel liner give some reassurance in using these barrels, particularly those from distributors who have a great track record of selling more quality Indian-made muskets?

 

[FlinterNick]

I think for certain applications (such as reenactments) that these are perfectly suitable: a noise and smoke maker shooting unwaded blanks. The cost is low (reenactors spend vastly more on clothing and other accompaniments), and their “historical accuracy” seems as off the mark as any other modern repro. I could even see restocking with better wood as an option.
With the 250th Anniversary of the AWI approaching, we are seeing new folks joining and I’m pretty sure the musket market will see a boost.
Another thought (which may have already been raised and I overlooked it) - would installing a barrel liner give some reassurance in using these barrels, particularly those from distributors who have a great track record of selling more quality Indian-made muskets?

I agree with you on everything you said, Part of the problem with installing barrel liners isn’t so much that it can’t be done, its convincing someone who paid $400-600 for a musket to spend an additional $200 on barrel liner work. The other issue is that there is only a few people who will actually do that work, many gunsmiths turn these away at first glance. Ed Rayl used to line these and rebreech them, especially the baker rifles, he no longer works on them because he’s just not interested in the projects anymore. Bobby Hoyt will only line them if he’s confident he can make it work, I actually spoke to Bobby a few weeks ago, and asked him about the Baker’s he’s rifled, he said only if the gun has been already in use, the walls are heavy enough and the breech is deep enough and threaded pretty good, he certainly doesn’t work on all Indian made barrels that come into his shop. Rice forget it, Jason at Rice has a lot of reservations about Indian barrels. Larry Harrigan possibly might, but i can’t say for sure. With the recent proof test failure, I’m sure some of these barrel makers will be limiting their work on Indian made barrels.

The distributors wont invest in the extra expense to line barrels, they’re are also not interested in investing in quality, according to them they sell a high quality product.

 

[FlinterNick]

It isn't a matter of interest or no interest that has made this topic ridiculous.
It is the fact that both sides refuse to see the valid points of the other side. Also that one side flat out refuses to look at the issue with any perspective regarding how many of these guns are out there versus how many blow up, especially given that the "proof load" that blew the barrel in question (going along with the narrative that the load blew the barrel despite it looking like the result of an obstruction) is by definition, and overload, makes this topic currently ridiculous.

It’s all based on perspective i think. The original thread was about a barrel proof failure, went to defending Indian made guns, and innuendo to support a very small economy, the message here has been politicized for the protection of a few interested parties.

One fact that remains here that is indisputable is that Indian made guns are inferior in quality, doesn’t mean they won’t explode, it just means they’re lesser quality overall. Lock, Stock and Barrel … even customer service.

However I’m extremely opportunistic that there is a better future for Indian made arms, with the advent of 3D imaging the costs of making a higher quality product are on the horizon for sure, this discussion will one day be part of the past. Personally if I were an Indian company i would do the following.

Manufacture locks and hardware, get good at one thing and export to the USA, if you make really good locks and hardware they will out sell and out produce any single company in the USA selling complete guns of lesser quality. They’d make more money selling hardware, and high quality locks than they do selling what they do now.

Dont’ make barrels don’t cut stocks, just not worth it, the amount of time it takes for their shops to produce barrels and stocks isn’t worth it what they’re producing and it is also hinged by their gun export laws.

 

[Sam squanch]

the Indian business world is not like the USA. They, for the most part, have a “ good enough “ attitude in manufacturing. And there still is some bribery attached to getting licensed, ect. And some manufacturers don’t want the negative attention if they get too successful. As in “ pay us more “ taxes” or you will be shut down! I don’t see these guns improving anytime soon. As posted above, they should concentrate on lock making only, offering a whole line of higher quality flintlocks.

 

[camoloc]

It’s all based on perspective i think. The original thread was about a barrel proof failure, went to defending Indian made guns, and innuendo to support a very small economy, the message here has been politicized for the protection of a few interested parties.

One fact that remains here that is indisputable is that Indian made guns are inferior in quality, doesn’t mean they won’t explode, it just means they’re lesser quality overall. Lock, Stock and Barrel … even customer service.

However I’m extremely opportunistic that there is a better future for Indian made arms, with the advent of 3D imaging the costs of making a higher quality product are on the horizon for sure, this discussion will one day be part of the past. Personally if I were an Indian company i would do the following.

Manufacture locks and hardware, get good at one thing and export to the USA, if you make really good locks and hardware they will out sell and out produce any single company in the USA selling complete guns of lesser quality. They’d make more money selling hardware, and high quality locks than they do selling what they do now.

Dont’ make barrels don’t cut stocks, just not worth it, the amount of time it takes for their shops to produce barrels and stocks isn’t worth it what they’re producing and it is also hinged by their gun export laws.

dont⁷ know about the other makers.......so have no comment on those.

like I've said, i love my pistol purchased from access/military/heritage. would stand by theirs with no reservations.

any yes I let others and the grandkids shoot blanks or balls with it.

I've sent some things through it that are borderline questionable without a scratch.

with this said........I like tinkering and working on things. cleaned things up, smoothed items out, etc. the only legitimate complaint would be the stain and finish laquer they use. it works and is okay......but it's gaudy and patchy.

I stripped and refinished mine......problem solved. Just used disposable baking tin so didn't have to clean anything !!!!

used varithane colonial brown.......then a quick wipe with varithane ebony to darken and give a weathered appearance. worked quite well and I'm pleased. finished with multiple tru oil coats then renaissance wax.

I also sanded out any slight imperfections where wood and metal meet. particularly prone to this around the skull crusher cap.

so in my opinion, the basic person not willing to tinker........might suck for them but still will safely go boom.

I like mine.....with work......and especially for the money and value $$$.

apologies if the four lettered word "work" offends.

camo

 

[Brokennock]

It’s all based on perspective i think. The original thread was about a barrel proof failure, went to defending Indian made guns, and innuendo to support a very small economy, the message here has been politicized for the protection of a few interested parties.

One fact that remains here that is indisputable is that Indian made guns are inferior in quality, doesn’t mean they won’t explode, it just means they’re lesser quality overall. Lock, Stock and Barrel … even customer service.

I don't see politics involved,,, just obstinance.

The extreme if one side says they are as good quality as anything else,,, they are wrong.
The other side says they are all dangerous junk and acts like every single gun is waiting to detonate like a grenade,,, they are also wrong.

Are they as good quality as guns made elsewhere? Of course not. Does one gun failing proof testing damn the whole lot of them? It shouldn't.

As far as politics go, regarding the alleged "proof test," being evidence of anything conclusive,,,, have we never seen testing done by anyone with an agenda before?
I for one am suspicious of this supposed "proof test," something smells fishy.

 

[springfield art]

It’s all based on perspective i think. The original thread was about a barrel proof failure, went to defending Indian made guns, and innuendo to support a very small economy, the message here has been politicized for the protection of a few interested parties.

One fact that remains here that is indisputable is that Indian made guns are inferior in quality, doesn’t mean they won’t explode, it just means they’re lesser quality overall. Lock, Stock and Barrel … even customer service.

However I’m extremely opportunistic that there is a better future for Indian made arms, with the advent of 3D imaging the costs of making a higher quality product are on the horizon for sure, this discussion will one day be part of the past. Personally if I were an Indian company i would do the following.

Manufacture locks and hardware, get good at one thing and export to the USA, if you make really good locks and hardware they will out sell and out produce any single company in the USA selling complete guns of lesser quality. They’d make more money selling hardware, and high quality locks than they do selling what they do now.

Dont’ make barrels don’t cut stocks, just not worth it, the amount of time it takes for their shops to produce barrels and stocks isn’t worth it what they’re producing and it is also hinged by their gun export laws.

It would be foolish to take on the locks offered here; the L&R, the other fine brands.

 

[springfield art]

dont⁷ know about the other makers.......so have no comment on those.

like I've said, i love my pistol purchased from access/military/heritage. would stand by theirs with no reservations.

any yes I let others and the grandkids shoot blanks or balls with it.

I've sent some things through it that are borderline questionable without a scratch.

with this said........I like tinkering and working on things. cleaned things up, smoothed items out, etc. the only legitimate complaint would be the stain and finish laquer they use. it works and is okay......but it's gaudy and patchy.

I stripped and refinished mine......problem solved. Just used disposable baking tin so didn't have to clean anything !!!!

View attachment 333710used varithane colonial brown.......then a quick wipe with varithane ebony to darken and give a weathered appearance. worked quite well and I'm pleased. finished with multiple tru oil coats then renaissance wax.
View attachment 333711
I also sanded out any slight imperfections where wood and metal meet. particularly prone to this around the skull crusher cap.

so in my opinion, the basic person not willing to tinker........might suck for them but still will safely go boom.

I like mine.....with work......and especially for the money and value $$$.

apologies if the four lettered word "work" offends.

camo

You didn't manage to get the cat in the photo! Or is that doggie hair? Nice stain job!!

 

[springfield art]

I hadn't thought about the idea that the musket market may get a boost for the 250th coming up. (Semi-quin-centennial). I recall the 200th clearly, did much active re- enacting, and couldn't imagine being around to see the 250th! But am still here, and can still suit up (without weapons or accoutrements, though; too much dressing at this age!) There's a small handful of guys that were very active enactors during the Bi-Cen, who as recently as a couple years ago were STILL suiting up and actively doing the battles & drills!! I'm thinking of selling my high-quality Rajasthan Armory Bess, so maybe the demand will be there. Thanks for the tip!

 

[springfield art]

You didn't manage to get the cat in the photo! Or is that doggie hair? Nice stain job!!

I had great service from Veteran Arms several years ago, and have been impressed with the site offered by Access/MH. Would use them as well, if needed.

 

[FlinterNick]

I don't see politics involved,,, just obstinance.

The extreme if one side says they are as good quality as anything else,,, they are wrong.
The other side says they are all dangerous junk and acts like every single gun is waiting to detonate like a grenade,,, they are also wrong.

Are they as good quality as guns made elsewhere? Of course not. Does one gun failing proof testing damn the whole lot of them? It shouldn't.

As far as politics go, regarding the alleged "proof test," being evidence of anything conclusive,,,, have we never seen testing done by anyone with an agenda before?
I for one am suspicious of this supposed "proof test," something smells fishy.

I don’t see how it’s suspicious, the gun was sold in a transaction for it to sell it needed to be proofed tested, as it wasn’t. That’s their laws, not ours. Consequently a failed proof test could have an effect on the Indian gun economy in Europe for sure, but again, that’s their laws, not ours.

 

[FlinterNick]

It would be foolish to take on the locks offered here; the L&R, the other fine brands.

Why would it be foolish?

L&R and Davis and Chambers offer a very limited selection of locks.

Dog Locks, English Locks, Wheel Locks, Larger Locks such as Brown Bress’ and Charlevilles you have to get custom assembled for from an orphaned gun.

What do you think draws people to Indian made guns ? It’s the void they fill, the desire to have something nobody else makes and can’t afford a custom gun.

Make those locks i mentioned in quantity and quality, there will be a larger market for builders to work with and customer’s to purchase.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Like the Chinese, I'm sure the Indian companies couldn't care less about what they sell to us dumb Americans. Why should they. If somebody is willing to buy something knowingly from a country of questionable quality control then why should said country care about its products?

From their perspective if they're selling guns that aren't vented then essentially they aren't firearms so why worry about quality control. If the company doesnt advertize or furnish instructions on how to convert the product into an operable firearm, then if the consumer decides to drill a vent and turn it into a firearm and it blows up, its on the consumers shoulders. The company isn't liable for any damage IMO. All the companys lawyers would need to prove is that the object wasn't an operable firearm when it left their factory, and the factory has absolutely no control over what the purchaser does with said object once its out of their hands.