India Barrel Failure

[Rudyard]

Perhaps Herr Schrapnel got his idea from an Indian Gun he owned?

Shrapnel wasn't' German or if he was it might have been Kings German legion

Most of the world writes a similar date the same way as those perfidious Brits - Day - Month - Year.

Perfidious?. Wasn't he a Greek Philosopher.
Rudyard

 

[DixieTexian]

The owner of the pistol might have originally bought it as a decoration piece, which does not require proof in any CIP signature country, and subsequently requested it get proofed so that he could shoot it. Unfortunately it failed proof. It being private property, it was returned to the owner with a failure certification. It is not the property of the Proof House.

The thing that concerns me about this is that ALL firearms are VERY closely inspected BEFORE proofing is carried out - this is the 'primary view. THEN it is proofed, and having passed proof, gets the appropriate stamp, but only after another close inspection has been carried out to ensure that there is no residual damage resulting from the proof test. Of course, if there is any damage, then it will have failed proof.

Dr Németh is not a panic-monger, nor is he underly-generous with the truth, as you seem to imply in your post. He is a highly-regarded senior lecturer on military history in an important university in Budapest and a leading light on BP shooting of all kinds in his native country and internationally.

I'm not sure any sort of certification is necessary in this case...

 

[RAEDWALD]

What is all this fuss about? A gun went to a government proof house and was proof tested. It failed. That is why sensible countries have government proof houses. It weeds out the failures. The system worked. In the USA it would have just gone on sale to the public as was.

 

[Pete G]

What is all this fuss about? A gun went to a government proof house and was proof tested. It failed. That is why sensible countries have government proof houses. It weeds out the failures. The system worked. In the USA it would have just gone on sale to the public as was.

US guns are proofed by the manufacturer. Any failure never makes the market.

 

[Rudyard]

What is all this fuss about? A gun went to a government proof house and was proof tested. It failed. That is why sensible countries have government proof houses. It weeds out the failures. The system worked. In the USA it would have just gone on sale to the public as was.

The principle virtue of a proof house is a lighter more pleasant to use gun , Ime thinking double shotguns can be made rather than some heavy gun that has all the grace of a brick outhouse . I had a lot to do with Birmingham .But found London to be useless and incompetent the only two times I had guns proofed there. The first because my patron wanted the London mark on his 'Lawrences pattern' musket. The second I sent a 45 flint rifle barrel pointing out" Put all the rubbish out of sight" .like Brum do only the ' Mark' visible but it came back "black powder only" rubbish on top'. I rang them up they warbled" Oh We have to do that" I said" Brum don't & its coming off"! "Oh you cant do that !" I said "Its coming off. "I put the phone down on the idiot and did so & put it through Brum once their strike was over .For what goes through London are the few high end guns and some matchlocks the proof chamber's just made into offices . At least at Brum if you drop one in for' immediate proof 'you can hear the bang they mark it and off you go still warm barrel and all the' rubbish' underneath just the actual mark visible
.Amusingly one day I had some Indian Blunderbusses proofed Ime chatting at the window when a female office clerk making up the bill shouts " Are they Military or sporting ?". The counter bloke says "Sporting" . " Got to be a Sport to fire one of these !" They went to America very popular items .

Rudyard's view on Proof houses
both are private companies its just the law guns must be proofed they don't except the batch testing on wartime govt arms .

 

[FlinterNick]

What is all this fuss about? A gun went to a government proof house and was proof tested. It failed. That is why sensible countries have government proof houses. It weeds out the failures. The system worked. In the USA it would have just gone on sale to the public as was.

American guns are proofed by the manufacture, as mentioned above. USA barrels are proofed all over the world, in Europe, Australia, Canada etc. we don’t hear much about the inferiority of American steel barrels failing very much because of how American barrel makers design them, American made barrels are massive in the breech for that very reason. If the debate here is about Indian made vs American made quality, well i dont there’s an argument to be had.

 

[Henry Miles]

Side note, India has the best machining capability in the world right now.

 

[Frontier's]

Not all American made barrels are proofed. Knight/green mountain for example are "usually " magnafluxed for cracks.

 

[FlinterNick]

Side note, India has the best machining capability in the world right now.

sure thing….

 

[Rudyard]

Side note, India has the best machining capability in the world right now.

Thats interesting though it seems different to my own observations in the early 70s but India is full of surprises .
Regards Rudyard

 

[FlinterNick]

Thats interesting though it seems different to my own observations in the early 70s but India is full of surprises .
Regards Rudyard

Depends, depends. I’m sure there are some Indian shops that machine these barrels, but from I know of them, they forge them over a mandrel by hand. While i think that’s one with 18th century materials such as wrought iron, steel…. I have a difficult time agreeing that it’s an appropriate way to forge a barrel made of steel. I sure hope they’re expert welders.

 

[Frontier's]

Nothing is the best in India you can watch their primitive machining,especially crankshafts, on YouTube.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

India in comparison to the rest of the World are still banging two rocks together.....

 

[Brokennock]

Nothing is the best in India you can watch their primitive machining,especially crankshafts, on YouTube.

I don't know,,, they seem to be "the best" at having "tech support" centers. Which is amazing seeing as they are also the best at having very sketchy wiring and electrical work.

They are also some of the best at polluting water.

But they are also some of the best at curry....
I myself prefer Thai curries, but that's a personal taste not a quality thing.

 

[Rudyard]

I don't know,,, they seem to be "the best" at having "tech support" centers. Which is amazing seeing as they are also the best at having very sketchy wiring and electrical work.

They are also some of the best at polluting water.

But they are also some of the best at curry....
I myself prefer Thai curries, but that's a personal taste not a quality thing.

What is this hate India month? have you worthies ever been there ?. I have there are some good & some bad things but that's not peculiar to India . The old twist barrel methods I never saw but there old twist barrels can be wonderful items . I did notice one shop in Bombay offer guns made with' Best Australian tubeing' ! I can only say that all the Indian barrels I had to do with stood proof at Birmingham. and all the muskets & smooth 'Rifles' in the Sharpe's series where Indian made & many got smashed since the Russian & Turkish portraying troops where very rough on them , Reenactors are not all' gun first'. its just a prop along with a suitable hat . Harpers volley gun was fiber glass. though there was a Fireable Volley gun made well two at least . Harper didn't like guns I was told and No rifle man in his right mind is going to fool with such a heavy brute . But its all theater based on historical units and shame on me to spoil a good yarn.
Rudyard who's been & seen & traded their

 

[Henry Miles]

A lot of the high end motorcycle manuf's are using India's machining technology, having engines made in India for KTM, Yamaha, Honda and others. Not all of India is in 3rd world conditions.

 

[Frontier's]

A lot of the high end motorcycle manuf's are using India's machining technology, having engines made in India for KTM, Yamaha, Honda and others. Not all of India is in 3rd world conditions.

Incorrect, they are using Indian work force. All these companies supply them with the machines. Slave labor at it's best. You'll see fancy equipment in a dirt floor street room, pumping out automotive parts, rims, etc. No thanks.

 

[Commodore Swab]

US guns are proofed by the manufacturer. Any failure never makes the market.

I'm curious. Where are rayl, Colerain, rifleshoppe, ect proofed? For that matter what US proof house tests black powder barrels? Maybe a better question is what does a US proof mark look like?

I think you will find that American barrels are not proofed with any standards.

 

[Rudyard]

I'm curious. Where are rayl, Colerain, rifleshoppe, ect proofed? For that matter what US proof house tests black powder barrels? Maybe a better question is what does a US proof mark look like?

I think you will find that American barrels are not proofed with any standards.

Contrary to what some say I don't believe there are any proof houses in Australia Canada or the US at least for sporting arms what the govt arms go through I've no idea I doubt any barrel maker proofs any thing at all but do take care to produce sound items mind full no doubt of litigation should some booby burst a gun barrel a situation not suffered by the UK gunmakers since the proof house affectively absolves him of. blame and he needn't build like the ' brick outhouses' I earlier alluded too .
Rudyard

 

[FlinterNick]

Contrary to what some say I don't believe there are any proof houses in Australia Canada or the US at least for sporting arms what the govt arms go through I've no idea I doubt any barrel maker proofs any thing at all but do take care to produce sound items mind full no doubt of litigation should some booby burst a gun barrel a situation not suffered by the UK gunmakers since the proof house affectively absolves him of. blame and he needn't build like the ' brick outhouses' I earlier alluded too .
Rudyard

US proofing methods are a quality control measure that is administered by the manufactures, it’s simply a private proof test to avoid a legal liability of which there is a great amount in the USA, no need for a proof house in the USA. Albite, things may change here one day, i don’t discourage future proof laws that may come about just as long as those proof tests are monitored with each transaction under an FFl. Where American laws will differ is how a gun is defined. I had recently learned that loose gun barrels (a barrel that is not part of a gun, just a part) made in Europe require proofing before sale or export, i don’t think you’ll ever see that kind of regulation here in the USA, a barrel is just a barrel, its a part, not until its made into a gun. I have a lot of Australian customers that get American barrels proofed all the time, no issues I’ve ever heard of regarding failed proof tests. On the flip side, Indian manufactures of black powder guns have no legal liability if a gun fails a proof test, because they didn’t sell them ready to shoot. Makes one wonder if India proof tests their own.