India Barrel Failure

[Commodore Swab]

I read Cap and Balls article on the India made gun that malfunctioned in the Hungarian proof house. He stated that they had no idea what metal or method was used in the manufacturing process. For whatever it’s worth, Military Heritage states that their barrels are “made of tempered seamless gun steel (type BS970 no.080M40.” I don’t know what that is but I assume it’s good steel. My opinion is that because these are made as non firing replicas, the manufacturer has no obligation to test the material or the final product. We all know what problems Remington had with heat treating when it was done by eye. If you drill the touch hole, you need to test it or “proof it” with stronger than normal loads before you shoulder it.

There are certainly better options out there for some of the reproductions, but where else are you going to find dog locks?

I try to use loyalist and veteran as examples as they drill the vent selling functional guns. Veteran is the best comparison as loyalist ships as gun parts rather than a complete gun. I do know they use the same builder in India which is different than whoever built the barrel that blew up. As an American company Veteran is selling ready to fire guns. They have had many shipped overseas and proofed, tens of thousands in operation in the US without a single failure.

 

[Frontier's]

this is a riot! Arguing over junk... literally.

 

[Aglukan]

Perhaps the evidence does point that way, but it is not 100% conclusive, besides that's not the point.

Do you really think that no salvaged vessel steel, no steel from any scrapped vessel hasn't ended up in a firearm? My guess i it has in the neighborhood of tons.

Also, why would ship scrap steel be any different than any other scrap steel, which is in broader use than virgin steel?

There are many in the sport that are shooting original guns, especially from the WBS era and even the AR era, are you trying to tell me the metallurgy in those guns is superior to the modern steels the Indians are using?

Are you a metallurgist ?

 

[Aglukan]

India is the second largest steel producer in the world, and I am sure like any other country they have varying levels of quality, but they do produce firearms of high quality, so they have high quality steel, and if the purveyors of said Indian rifles are not outright lying about the specs on their barrel steel, it is plenty strong enough for the use intended, and then some

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_and_steel_industry_in_India

https://ddpdoo.gov.in/units/RFI

Even back in the days of matchlocks, Indian muskets were renowned for their quality, and the more modern 2A Enfield .308 was made from higher quality steel than the British models it derived from.

What evidence do you have as to their quality beyond your personal prejudice?

What kind of steel is Indian made guns made from ?

 

[French Colonial]

If you gentlemen believe that all American steel does not have recycled whatever in it......

 

[Clark Badgett]

I think youve missed the point, he's talking about what the associated costs would be if one was working on their own Indian made ML, not as a commercial venture.

And I think you missed the point that you can’t polish a turd.

 

[SDSmlf]

Are you a metallurgist ?

I’m am not a metallurgist, but I worked with a number of them over the years.

Here is a quote from Steel.org, I believe they may have metallurgists in their organization.

Steel is 100 percent recyclable, which means it can be recycled into the same material of the same quality again and again. When you buy steel, you are buying recycled.

https://www.steel.org/sustainability/

 

[Eterry]

I wasn’t talking to you.

But we're watching. You have my attention.

 

[tenngun]

this is a riot! Arguing over junk... literally.

I have a curry popper, it ain’t junk. It ain’t an heirloom but it ain’t junk.
Them of us that have them don’t care much for them being disparaged. Especially based on lies and idiocy

 

[tenngun]

And I think you missed the point that you can’t polish a turd.

What makes it a turd?
wood metal fit? It’s as good as an Italian over the counter gun, and I bet as good as 90% of home kit builders get
Accuracy of looks.
Well again not perfect but again as good as Perdersoli and 90% of what ml shooters are shooting, far more correct then Lyman, or Traditions and certainly TC and CVA
Accuracy at shooting?
They shoot as well as any smootie I’ve seen
Safty
Find me one properly loaded and cared for that ever blew up, even with a double charge.
I started this over forty years ago, and I recall CVA being a joke and when Italian guns showed up under their own name they were spaghetti smokers
I was told at a sales counter that a Moroko bess was a wall hanger as them ‘Japs didn’t know how to build guns’
Times change
In twenty years do you think we’ll be talking about how bad Zimbabwe guns are, Mozambic pipe bombs

 

[Eterry]

Just a reminder to all.
Discussion is great, and differing opinions are impossible to avoid.
BUT, when members get Personal, Attack others, become a Troll, or don't follow the rules, then warnings will be issued.

 

[Frontstuffer070]

Seems the people who actually HAVE one and have USED one like them very much. I've said this before. As a "Community" Shouldn't we be grateful to actually have them? Who else is producing the models that they do? You ALL seem to want the history of these firearms to be spread, remembered, and enjoyed. Are the Indians not helping us do that?

 

[Clark Badgett]

What makes it a turd?
wood metal fit? It’s as good as an Italian over the counter gun, and I bet as good as 90% of home kit builders get
Accuracy of looks.
Well again not perfect but again as good as Perdersoli and 90% of what ml shooters are shooting, far more correct then Lyman, or Traditions and certainly TC and CVA
Accuracy at shooting?
They shoot as well as any smootie I’ve seen
Safty
Find me one properly loaded and cared for that ever blew up, even with a double charge.
I started this over forty years ago, and I recall CVA being a joke and when Italian guns showed up under their own name they were spaghetti smokers
I was told at a sales counter that a Moroko bess was a wall hanger as them ‘Japs didn’t know how to build guns’
Times change
In twenty years do you think we’ll be talking about how bad Zimbabwe guns are, Mozambic pipe bombs

I’m sorry, but if I am going to pay money for a product it had better be as advertised. In this case we are discussing MLs. The fact that turds have come of Europe does not change the fact that a significant number of these Indian made guns are not mechanically correct, and they are miles away from being anywhere near what they are being called. There is not a single offering by these importers that don’t need every single part changed to look the part, including the barrels and stocks. They are not made correctly and ain’t no 20 minute buff and sand job gonna change that.

 

[tenngun]

I’m sorry, but if I am going to pay money for a product it had better be as advertised. In this case we are discussing MLs. The fact that turds have come of Europe does not change the fact that a significant number of these Indian made guns are not mechanically correct, and they are miles away from being anywhere near what they are being called. There is not a single offering by these importers that don’t need every single part changed to look the part, including the barrels and stocks. They are not made correctly and ain’t no 20 minute buff and sand job gonna change that.

So you’re calling the Perdisoli guns terds also. Are the only acceptable guns those that are bench copies with TRS parts.
I built a track of the wolf NWG, used their plans, I think I did a good job. But it was on plain maple.
They sold a lot of those before Covid, were they all turds.
Remember Navy arms?
They made an 1803 Harper’s Ferry…. In .58, rifled for a Minnie
Perdisoli make a 1797 US musket, mostly a copy of the 77 charley
Is it a turd? After all it’s not on American walnut
Few of us can afford a perfect copy
Are all our guns turds?
I have a Centermark FDC, it’s heavy and short compared to originals, and on maple no less…. Turds galore I guess

 

[tenngun]

And I would make a wager that if you took some origanal muskets, Brit,French,German and put a loyalist arms bess, charley and Potsdam all on a wall, four of each with one curry popper mixed in. Took a black and white photo of them we won’t have a member who could pick the bad gun out

 

[FlinterNick]

this is a riot! Arguing over junk... literally.

So you’re calling the Perdisoli guns terds also. Are the only acceptable guns those that are bench copies with TRS parts.
I built a track of the wolf NWG, used their plans, I think I did a good job. But it was on plain maple.
They sold a lot of those before Covid, were they all turds.
Remember Navy arms?
They made an 1803 Harper’s Ferry…. In .58, rifled for a Minnie
Perdisoli make a 1797 US musket, mostly a copy of the 77 charley
Is it a turd? After all it’s not on American walnut
Few of us can afford a perfect copy
Are all our guns turds?
I have a Centermark FDC, it’s heavy and short compared to originals, and on maple no less…. Turds galore I guess

I think Anton Zoli made the 1803 in .58.

I’m pretty sure the Turds he’s referring to are the Belgian and Jukar made replicas that were very questionable in appearances. Has Pedersoli made turds, yea of course.

Is the debate now who poops out the bigger turd, decently the Indian gun builders.

He’s also correct, you can’t find a single one that doesn’t have some mechanical issue with the lock or authentic issues with the stock or barrel or hardware.

I work with the rifle shoppe a lot, one of their biggest sellers is random parts such as locks, mainsprings and frizzen springs, which many Indian gun owners often will attempt to attach to Indian made arms, all up and ask. So if someone (not yourself) needs to invest cash and time into a part, it only makes sense if they can do it themselves, such as Ethan Wood on YouTube, otherwise. You’re paying someone at least 150-250 for the work.

I have an Indian made Charlie that snuck into my shop here with a rifle shoppe mainspring and frizzen spring, both are busted because they don’t fit. The answer to this is to weld up the holes, drill, tap and refit…. Not exactly cheep time work.

 

[FlinterNick]

If you gentlemen believe that all American steel does not have recycled whatever in it......

I know what kind of steel all of my gunbarrels are made of. Knowing is better than guessing a mystery steel, just my thought.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I’m sorry, but if I am going to pay money for a product it had better be as advertised. In this case we are discussing MLs. The fact that turds have come of Europe does not change the fact that a significant number of these Indian made guns are not mechanically correct, and they are miles away from being anywhere near what they are being called. There is not a single offering by these importers that don’t need every single part changed to look the part, including the barrels and stocks. They are not made correctly and ain’t no 20 minute buff and sand job gonna change that.

Everyone has their opinion.
However, as the ONLY option maybe you should keep yours to yourself.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I know what kind of steel all of my gunbarrels are made of. Knowing is better than guessing a mystery steel, just my thought.

I would like to see a barrel you made. Perhaps you mean you know the steel of barrels you have bought?

 

[tenngun]

I think Anton Zoli made the 1803 in .58.

I’m pretty sure the Turds he’s referring to are the Belgian and Jukar made replicas that were very questionable in appearances. Has Pedersoli made turds, yea of course.

Is the debate now who poops out the bigger turd, decently the Indian gun builders.

He’s also correct, you can’t find a single one that doesn’t have some mechanical issue with the lock or authentic issues with the stock or barrel or hardware.

I work with the rifle shoppe a lot, one of their biggest sellers is random parts such as locks, mainsprings and frizzen springs, which many Indian gun owners often will attempt to attach to Indian made arms, all up and ask. So if someone (not yourself) needs to invest cash and time into a part, it only makes sense if they can do it themselves, such as Ethan Wood on YouTube, otherwise. You’re paying someone at least 150-250 for the work.

I have an Indian made Charlie that snuck into my shop here with a rifle shoppe mainspring and frizzen spring, both are busted because they don’t fit. The answer to this is to weld up the holes, drill, tap and refit…. Not exactly cheep time work.

Zol made one but so did navy arms, maybe under contract. Had a broke spring on a Mowry Allen and Thurber, another on a Davis
Looking for one without flaws I’ll offer up my loyalist. It’s very close to a 1710 dog lock reviewed by I love muzzel loading.
Butt plate is different as it doesn’t have as long a comb plate, it lacks an entry pipe and has a pipe in the middle of the ramrod channel, the original didn’t
There is no side plate as the original had a weird shaped bent flat bar that looked very crude and may have been later
Stock architecture was real close in shape but far too thick in the forearm.
Didn’t take long to cut down the fore stock, dull the barrel, I did painted stock as was common in that time frame
Might be heavy but lighter then a long land bess( almost slipped and called it first model) in spite of teak wood
I’ve never had a better funuctioning lock