Indian Muskets

[Newtire]

Ok, thanks you guys. I will try to find the post by the guy grenadiers mentioned.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I understand that the Indian guns are not drilled for a "touch hole" or flash channel/hole. If this is the case, how do they pass any proof testing?...

Calvin

In the case of proof testing in Great Britain, Germany or Italy, when the gun is drilled for a touch hole and to be added to the smooth bore permits, the gun is submitted at the owner's expense to a proof house. It undergoes the standard proof tests for that type of gun and that individual gun is marked as passing proof.

Proof testing is not done in the US. There are no proof houses. Some manufacturers in the US do proof to their standards, but a US made gun shipped to Europe is subject to the proof house requirements and sent to the proof house for acceptance.

 

[FlinterNick]

No, I don't believe each & every barrel is proofed. The "undrilled" ones are sold that way so they can be offered as 'non-guns' to areas that have legal strictures. Imagine, you'd have to have personnel to swab & clean each bbl. after proofing. There are probable many or several makers of parts for the Indian guns, little factories here and there. Some of the Indian guns ARE drilled; example the ones being sold by VA and others. Makers of barrels may just sell to the final builders or assemblers. Anyone else have some knowledgeable comments?

The barrels that VA and Loyalist receive in from India are not drilled until they’re assembled and furbished in Loyalist Arms gun shops and VA shops.

There are no muskets coming in from India that are vented or ready to shoot, Indian laws prohibit it. They distributed and sold from Indian shops as decorative or prop items.

 

[springfield art]

To my knowledge Indian guns are built by many different companies and of varied quality. I know of none exported that are drilled. You can get good quality to very poor quality, Veteran Arms and Loyalist seem to have found the best builders. This is the difference between a supplier that actually goes over the guns they receive instead of just passing it off. Veteran has the benefit of being in the US but that is irrelevant in regards to my last post which basically said they are excellent entry level guns and cover a range of centuries not offered aside from special built pieces. Aside from TRS is there anyone making guns/kits pre 1700 in the US?

I don't imagine these dealers would be selling the muskets if there were a big problem with quality control. Overall, the products must be suitable with proper care and respect.

 

[FlinterNick]

I don't imagine these dealers would be selling the muskets if there were a big problem with quality control. Overall, the products must be suitable with proper care and respect.

Yes, two vendors in particular do a nice job on distributing them, loyalist arms and Veteran Arms. I’ve actually seen many of loyalist arms Charleville’s sell on auction at TOW and they get some decent grades.

Middlesex Village I’ve heard good and bad things about, and that working through the mail is challenging with them if you have a gun you’d like to return.

Discriminating General is a no go on the Indian made repro’s, they sell their guns unvented and not much there in the works of gunsmithing.

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

Discriminating General is no longer around. They have undergone a change and are now known as MilitaryHeritage dot com. They are located in Canada, and I must say that the website does have some very interesting historical articles available for reading. I have had no direct dealings with them, so cannot comment on how much their former status has changed regarding muskets. I do see the weapons are still sold un-vented for legal delivery "in a non-firing state. This allows us to comply with various local, state, national and international firearms regulations..."

 

[RAEDWALD]

Hi, not trying to perpetuate any ranting that may or may not be going on but rather like to establish some facts.

I understand that the Indian guns are not drilled for a "touch hole" or flash channel/hole. If this is the case, how do they pass any proof testing?

Is this maybe done with a drilled thru breech at the proof house?

I had another question but it really belongs in a separate posting so that's my question. Hope someone might clear that up. Great group by the way! I trust someone has the answer as I think that here would be the best place to find it.

Thank You,

Calvin

Hi Calvin. These are proofed by drilling the touch hole and then submitting them for proof testing. This has to be done before they can go on the market in Europe if they are to be sold as shooters. They can be bought undrilled as decorative items.

The same would apply in India but once proofed it is then a 'firearm' so cannot be exported.

 

[SirFrancis]

I bought a second-hand Loyalist Arms LLP Brown Bess. Cost me about $500 shipped I think. (Which does seem to prove, incidentally, that even if it’s junk in your opinion, you can still get most of your money out when you sell.)

Fact of the matter is, when you buy guns there’s a certain price point you’re comfortable with. Sure, you can “save a bit longer and buy better,” but that only works to a point. I knew I wanted a Bess. I also knew that at $500 my wife would smile and hope I enjoyed it. At $800 she’d cock an eyebrow. At $1265 there’s the question of just why I’m spending that much money on a toy when that would very nicely pay for a new hot water heater/four car payments/a chunk of private school tuition for the kids/etc. At 2k-3k for the mythical custom from a good builder using ideal HC parts, well, it might shoot like a dream, but is it actually going to give me that much dramatically different a Brown Bess “feel” or experience than the $500 India gun?

I’m very happy with my Loyalist Arms musket, so far. It looks the part, seems pretty HC based on most of the little details I see in the books, sparks pretty well, and doubtless when I assemble the accoutrements to clean it properly, will probably be a blast to shoot. Does it have some little QC issues? Absolutely. But in time, with the aid of knowledgeable people on this forum, it’ll be completely sorted out, and I’ll have learned a bunch, and will still have a much cheaper musket (both in money and time) than if I were to try to build one.

 

[FlinterNick]

I bought a second-hand Loyalist Arms LLP Brown Bess. Cost me about $500 shipped I think. (Which does seem to prove, incidentally, that even if it’s junk in your opinion, you can still get most of your money out when you sell.)

Fact of the matter is, when you buy guns there’s a certain price point you’re comfortable with. Sure, you can “save a bit longer and buy better,” but that only works to a point. I knew I wanted a Bess. I also knew that at $500 my wife would smile and hope I enjoyed it. At $800 she’d cock an eyebrow. At $1265 there’s the question of just why I’m spending that much money on a toy when that would very nicely pay for a new hot water heater/four car payments/a chunk of private school tuition for the kids/etc. At 2k-3k for the mythical custom from a good builder using ideal HC parts, well, it might shoot like a dream, but is it actually going to give me that much dramatically different a Brown Bess “feel” or experience than the $500 India gun?

I’m very happy with my Loyalist Arms musket, so far. It looks the part, seems pretty HC based on most of the little details I see in the books, sparks pretty well, and doubtless when I assemble the accoutrements to clean it properly, will probably be a blast to shoot. Does it have some little QC issues? Absolutely. But in time, with the aid of knowledgeable people on this forum, it’ll be completely sorted out, and I’ll have learned a bunch, and will still have a much cheaper musket (both in money and time) than if I were to try to build one.

Whenever I buy a muzzleloader I always consider the resale of it, just in case. I treat my guns like their an investment. And TRS or TOW kit will yield almost 100% returns on cost and labor.

Even Miruko Brown Besse’s and Charlevilles that once sold for $500 are now selling for $1000-1500 on Gunbroker. Back in the 1980’s and 1990’s most reinactors knew that the miruko was a quality gun with some minor authentic flaws.

I don’t see Indian made repro’s yielding much in value, which is why I always say buy the Indian made gun and don’t do anything to it, don’t add to it, don’t try to upgrade it it will never return your costs if you sell it.

I take my wife and kids away to nice places, and I take my wife to nice places without my kids. I’ll buy what ever gun I want to.

 

[towgunner11h]

Bought a Long Land Pattern Bess from Earl Kathan, then had Ed Rayl make me a new barrel. Shoots great now. Before, it had a loose spot right on the muzzle end of the chamber.

 

[SirFrancis]

Whenever I buy a muzzleloader I always consider the resale of it, just in case. I treat my guns like their an investment. And TRS or TOW kit will yield almost 100% returns on cost and labor.

Even Miruko Brown Besse’s and Charlevilles that once sold for $500 are now selling for $1000-1500 on Gunbroker. Back in the 1980’s and 1990’s most reinactors knew that the miruko was a quality gun with some minor authentic flaws.

I don’t see Indian made repro’s yielding much in value, which is why I always say buy the Indian made gun and don’t do anything to it, don’t add to it, don’t try to upgrade it it will never return your costs if you sell it.

I take my wife and kids away to nice places, and I take my wife to nice places without my kids. I’ll buy what ever gun I want to.

For most guys who aren’t hardcore muzzleloading-only, a Bess sounds fun -but at that sub-1k price point where it’s closer to a week’s pay than a month’s. A custom rifle can be carried in the field just fine, but for most, a Bess is either going to be a range toy or something to beat up in re-enactment.

For most muzzleloaders there’s products at every price point. For repro military flintlocks, there’s top tier, bottom, and not much in between. And the bottom is controversial due to the fact that it’s not one company. It’s many, all lumped together by country of origin.

 

[springfield art]

I bought a second-hand Loyalist Arms LLP Brown Bess. Cost me about $500 shipped I think. (Which does seem to prove, incidentally, that even if it’s junk in your opinion, you can still get most of your money out when you sell.)

Fact of the matter is, when you buy guns there’s a certain price point you’re comfortable with. Sure, you can “save a bit longer and buy better,” but that only works to a point. I knew I wanted a Bess. I also knew that at $500 my wife would smile and hope I enjoyed it. At $800 she’d cock an eyebrow. At $1265 there’s the question of just why I’m spending that much money on a toy when that would very nicely pay for a new hot water heater/four car payments/a chunk of private school tuition for the kids/etc. At 2k-3k for the mythical custom from a good builder using ideal HC parts, well, it might shoot like a dream, but is it actually going to give me that much dramatically different a Brown Bess “feel” or experience than the $500 India gun?

I’m very happy with my Loyalist Arms musket, so far. It looks the part, seems pretty HC based on most of the little details I see in the books, sparks pretty well, and doubtless when I assemble the accoutrements to clean it properly, will probably be a blast to shoot. Does it have some little QC issues? Absolutely. But in time, with the aid of knowledgeable people on this forum, it’ll be completely sorted out, and I’ll have learned a bunch, and will still have a much cheaper musket (both in money and time) than if I were to try to build one.

Your comments are well presented. I'm fortunate to have a nice Pedersoli Bess from their kit, which came out nicely after the final sanding, polishing of brass, etc. I also have an early 1980's- era Indian Bess that needed the mainspring 'thinned' in order to be "cockable", and after having the frizzen hardened and going over the stock to reshape the area behind the palm swell, (it was way too thick), it looks great. The bbl. appears to be very high quality steel, and everything you stated pans out true. Thanks.

 

[FlinterNick]

For most guys who aren’t hardcore muzzleloading-only, a Bess sounds fun -but at that sub-1k price point where it’s closer to a week’s pay than a month’s. A custom rifle can be carried in the field just fine, but for most, a Bess is either going to be a range toy or something to beat up in re-enactment.

For most muzzleloaders there’s products at every price point. For repro military flintlocks, there’s top tier, bottom, and not much in between. And the bottom is controversial due to the fact that it’s not one company. It’s many, all lumped together by country of origin.

I guess it depends on how you purchase. Auction is your best bet to save money for a quality gun from pedersoli or Rifle Shoppe.

As far as custom Brown Bess Kits go, Yup it will cost your around 2500-3k if you go through a reputable gunsmith. If you do it yourself, which is difficult but possible, you can have your own bess for the around the same cost of a pedersoli repro. Custom kits

The tricky part with Brown Bess kits is the thimble and barrel placement for lugging, measuring finitely and slowly is necessary.

There are some small shops in the the USA now making custom Brown Bess’s for under 1500

 

[springfield art]

Interesting that there are some shops making custom Besses at that price range! BTW, I have a nice Indian-made Bess with a bbl. dated 1981. It has repro proof stamps; Crown w/ Broad Arrow and Crossed Hammers w/ Royal Cypher. Nicely done stamps. I'm not saying they're actual proofs, but wonder is any other Indian made muskets have the repro Proof stamps? Just wondering if it's common to see them on such muskets.

 

[Rudyard]

The marking proofs might not matter in USA but its a no no in the UK . The modern one is just BP with crown atop or is what is usually seen , the rest of the details are underneath or should be. The old Marks crossed Maces not hammers are bigger and according to if Ordnance or Commercial (Ordnance has a GR the Commercial just two crossed maces) , might be' Scepters' but Not hammers have you a photo . ' Thimble ' placing Ide call them 'pipes' and unlike say Enfield's they are not critical and vary according to the makers You might notice a varience in a rack close together but in a file of men you wouldn't pick it . I know some call pipes' thimbles' but they are nothing like' thimbles' and a lot like' pipes' . De Witt Bailey put out a great 'Pattern Dates' Booklet very good reading and gives the spaceing of pipes ect on the examples he measured . Regards Rudyard

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I believe that back in the days where you counted on yourself and numerous others to produce a tool albeit a hunting rifle was a completely different undertaking. Not only did it not involve time and patience but it involved producing something that not only lasted regular use but some examples survive today as unmatched craftsmanship in rifle building. Some builders on here produce stellar examples along the lines of great builders but it takes so much to attain what we for some reasons can only guess about.
They (forefathers) Had procedures and quirks that most likely have been lost to time in spite of modern advances in metallurgy that gave us the finest examples produced.
Dont get me wrong we have so much at our fingertips in technology but we still romance with the fact that they did so much with very little. Surviving examples exemplify that.
Today it is quantity over quality bottom line is profits.
Just my 2cnts
SM

 

[nhmoose]

"Did they check the alloys used and such? Just asking. Its possible to cut off a piece of steel, put it in the right equipment turn it on and get a print out of the alloy." from Dphar1950

A decent junk metal dealer can xr-scan without cutting tests against the metal with readout of all in the alloy.

 

[FlinterNick]

Interesting that there are some shops making custom Besses at that price range! BTW, I have a nice Indian-made Bess with a bbl. dated 1981. It has repro proof stamps; Crown w/ Broad Arrow and Crossed Hammers w/ Royal Cypher. Nicely done stamps. I'm not saying they're actual proofs, but wonder is any other Indian made muskets have the repro Proof stamps? Just wondering if it's common to see them on such muskets.

There are at least two I know that are making Long Lands with Pedersoli Grice Locks at around 1200-2k. That’s not a bad price for a custom gun.

The Grice lock does fit the long land period per Goldstein’s Book, most of Grice’s work was on the 1756 long land, Naval Guns and 1769 Shortlands and 1776 Rifles. The only problem with the Grice Lock is the engravings are off, Frizzen spring is too long. Per pedersoli, this is done purposely so they don’t get passed off as original.

 

[Byron A Rudrow]

Yet more reasons to not get married or have kids! We confirmed retired, old fart bachelors can spend how we want. This discussion will and should continue to pass on good and reliable information. I’m just not trusting enough to buy a Indian firearm.......yet. I want a Long Land Bess, so I’m going to get a kit from Track Of The Wolf and build one.

 

[Darrin McDonal]

Recently just read a forum post here and tons of people are trashing on Indian guns.

Personally, l don’t understand lt. Their ls no way muskets that were hand made 250 years ago are “better” or higher quality than Indian reproductions today. l got a Brown Bess from VeteranArms and lt ls awesome. Does everything l need lt to do. For anyone out their contemplating lt, don’t spend over a thousand dollars on a reproduction musket. You don’t need lt. l can not say anything about Indian manufactures other than VeteranArms because they’re the only ones lve used. But VA muskets are great.

My rant has ended.

The quality of muskets made back then was definitely better than those made in India today, there's no question about it. Here's just one example of that, they don't proof test any of their barrels before they get shipped here. Their standards were far higher, and when you lived in a world where everything is handmade the quality was exceedingly high on products that were required to be. Indian trade guns made in Birmingham were not required to be proof tested because Indians weren't going to sue England manufacturers.
Darrin