Indian Muskets

[Griz44Mag]

Goodnight John Boy.....

 

[springfield art]

It seems to me, it would be better for all concerned if some of these so called Indian companies put a brand or mfg name on the product. I am not a big Pedersoli fan, at the least there is a name on the gun and I have a confidence level associated with that name. I believe in the honesty of the posts here that MTC imports vary. Also MTC is one person. He may have improved and learn much over time. I will guess the same for the some other importers. It is a big mess. And a lot of special interests and big talkers spreading manure over the web. Although, I really like this forum. Very informative. But it is still the internet.

My 2c on proofs, I dont need a proof if I see the name like TC, CVA or Pedersoli. One reason a person might like a proof done on an Indian gun should be obvious from reading the last 17 pages. That is an easy DIY effort.

Yeah, I just don't see the Indian factories taking that up a notch. I think they prefer to market to dealers and let THEM do the marketing, branding, or whatever. There's all sorts of regulations, laws, product specs., etc.; This is indeed a good forum.

 

[FlinterNick]

Yeah, I just don't see the Indian factories taking that up a notch. I think they prefer to market to dealers and let THEM do the marketing, branding, or whatever. There's all sorts of regulations, laws, product specs., etc.; This is indeed a good forum.

They likely won’t set up any brand names like Pedersoli did, their laws also don’t have the same business formation rules as Europe and the USA.

Believe it or not, the USA and Canada and Europe have been importing black powder replcia guns and or parts from India for a long time, since the 1970’s, most of those older replicas are not shootable unless modifications were made to the breech. There’s a huge brass market in India, so getting good quality castings from India shoppes cheaper is a business equity. In England Kit Ravensheer and Sandy McNab did alter some, I know there was a Quasi 1750/1756 Long Land for the Bicentennial which was made with some Indian parts, with the quality being considered so poorer Kit moved his Shoppe with Coach harness who made higher quality barrels and stocks.

Otherwise I don’t think you’ll see an Indian ‘pedersoli’ counter part. In the USA and Canada there are many small shoppes doing more business and producing higher quality muzzle loaders, but taking off a gun business in the USA and Canada is no easy task.

 

[Rudyard]

The Indian brass mounts I bought where rather poor quality brass .Kit sold out to Sandy Mac Nabs / Coach Harness . The story of the Long Lands was complex the only one I saw had a wood screw for a tang nail didn't look bad though & had the Grice lock. I stocked up a kit one time the wood was Merranti not a pre shape. Mr Mac Nab gave up the gun caper & went to be an actor at Stratford on Avons Shakespearian theatre . Kit went to work for the Stewart collections. Then a coalmine museum in Frackville PA (His family once owned coal mines ) Then he set up doing guns and took on live in pupils in restoration . Kits Costermongers type cart loaded with guns was a regular sight at Events like Fort Niagara & R vous . He was some times testy , But was clever, if by my notions a bit rough. He said original guns where basic & rough ..He studied the Ketlands in North America and had a fascination with devolving & multi shot guns .Devolving viz flint or cap ignitions &' Roman candle' ideas . He helped me with info of the rifle we now call the 1776 ML rifle as did a Mr Robert Cheel who first showed me a Grice lock off one he had. He took it to the first US Internationals at Quantico Va looking for some one who knew what he had & was steered to me (I know nothing but can talk fast !) I put him onto Kit & De Witt Baily thus connecting Bob with De Witt & he later told me it was the best thing I ever did for him , they got on so well . But I made the first 'Tower ' rifle as we called it and we took photos at Kits house . But he later made five of them & wrote an article ' My Personal experience with the 1776 Tower rifle '. Never mentioned me at all he once told me "Don't fly your flag off my flag".He was certainly a 'Character' I ended up with a pile of his old parts I didn't really know till one Ketland & Co Lock casting looked familiar it was a Blackley kit nice & light & on the inside with my initials in very small stamping, I did put stuff together odd times for him .Nothing much wrong with my guns I didn't need to fly my flag of his. Rudyard

 

[FlinterNick]

The Indian brass mounts I bought where rather poor quality brass .Kit sold out to Sandy Mac Nabs / Coach Harness . The story of the Long Lands was complex the only one I saw had a wood screw for a tang nail didn't look bad though & had the Grice lock. I stocked up a kit one time the wood was Merranti not a pre shape. Mr Mac Nab gave up the gun caper & went to be an actor at Stratford on Avons Shakespearian theatre . Kit went to work for the Stewart collections. Then a coalmine museum in Frackville PA (His family once owned coal mines ) Then he set up doing guns and took on live in pupils in restoration . Kits Costermongers type cart loaded with guns was a regular sight at Events like Fort Niagara & R vous . He was some times testy , But was clever, if by my notions a bit rough. He said original guns where basic & rough ..He studied the Ketlands in North America and had a fascination with devolving & multi shot guns .Devolving viz flint or cap ignitions &' Roman candle' ideas . He helped me with info of the rifle we now call the 1776 ML rifle as did a Mr Robert Cheel who first showed me a Grice lock off one he had. He took it to the first US Internationals at Quantico Va looking for some one who knew what he had & was steered to me (I know nothing but can talk fast !) I put him onto Kit & De Witt Baily thus connecting Bob with De Witt & he later told me it was the best thing I ever did for him , they got on so well . But I made the first 'Tower ' rifle as we called it and we took photos at Kits house . But he later made five of them & wrote an article ' My Personal experience with the 1776 Tower rifle '. Never mentioned me at all he once told me "Don't fly your flag off my flag".He was certainly a 'Character' I ended up with a pile of his old parts I didn't really know till one Ketland & Co Lock casting looked familiar it was a Blackley kit nice & light & on the inside with my initials in very small stamping, I did put stuff together odd times for him .Nothing much wrong with my guns I didn't need to fly my flag of his. Rudyard

From the Indian made Brown Bess's I've come across the brass seems chunky and more yellow, which is an indication that more copper is used than zinc, that's often used with decorative items like candle stick holder and such, gun parts of brass should be pretty hard made of equal parts zinc and copper.

The stock on those long lands by Kit were often made with beechwood, very available in Europe, not a great selection for a gun with high recoil.

The M1776 Rifle is a nice rifle to reproduce, the Rifle Shoppe copied several originals to get their castings, they even have the ramrod spoon that is almost never seen on originals, for now they're the only one producing parts sets too. Nagrasent made one for a few years, but it was less than a few hundred I believe. I came across one of Kits at Lodgewood Arms Inc. and wasn't impressed with the pictures, the stock seemed heavier per say and the barrel I believe was the most authentic part, by Getz; the lock was also a little larger and rounded, almost seemed like a third model lock. The term 'Tower' from what I've read about is a basic terminology given to most British 17th and 18th century arms by reproducers, Tower Pistol, Tower Musket etc. From a reproduction point of view, it makes perfect sense to use Tower Markings, as it avoids the questionable authenticity of musket's intended period. Such as a shortland by Pedersoli marked Grice, if it were marked Tower, it would get much more respect than it does from collectors.

I will never order parts from Blackly or Dyson, my orders from them are constantly screwed up and Blackly owes $100 in parts I order a year ago, which he insists that he mailed and Dyson for some reason will send you items you didn't order insistent that it will work on your project when he hasn't seen it.

 

[Rudyard]

Well 'Yellow brass' is what they used,And few foundries today will run it as the zink gives of fumes that cause the' ague' as the founders put it . There are or where so few 1776 Tower rifles only four when I made a copy pre TRS . Then one turned up the one in De Witt Baileys Pattern Dates Booklet. Beech is tough stuff hardly likely to fall apart .I did own a barrel from them it didn't bear Getz markings . I don't believe any Collector would give a second glance at any factory repro out there. They might look seriously at any made by Dave Person or my own make carbines. for that matter I've made enough .
I knew Peter Dyson when he started in the attic he may seem pricey but Ide never question his honesty. Rudyard

 

[FlinterNick]

Dyson I’m sure is a respectable amongst his peers, as a business operator I think when a purchase is made he should send exactly what was purchased, not something else. In any event if the item is not stocked, refund the monies and undue the transaction, this was not the case for myself. What did I lose, I waited for a part I was never going to receive.... sorry for the rant, this was recent. I’m sure it wasn’t his own personal mistake but rather his administor.

Blackley... I don’t know what to say other than I’ve purchased parts and never received them, nothing else much to say, somehow my package fell off the plane and is in the Atlantic Ocean.

The Yellow Brass I was referring to was the brass used on the discriminating general reproductions. Sometimes this brass is so soft that a slight tap to it will create an impression, almost like its a heavier sheet brass. I’ve only seen it on a few reproductions from the 1980’s and unpinning the thimbles cause the pinned lugs to shed too much, and no longer fit tightly.