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Is A 28 ga Enough?

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TO,
We can use rifles in SOME counties on SOME birds in Texas but only in the fall season. IIRC, Eastern turkey is ok to use rifles on, but Rio Grande turkey is not, or I may have that backwards. I'd have to check, but anyway, it is not a clear cut state-wide rule. I know in my county and the ones surrounding me, I can use a rifle during the fall season, but using I am also allowed to load a single PRB into my .54 smoothbore ML, and since it is smoothbore, they consider it a shotgun, and my "patterns" with that are perfectly fine to 60yds for turkey and 80yds for deer. They just say I have to use a shotgun during the spring season, but could care less what it is loaded with as long as the projectile isn't explosive or poisoned. I have loads worked up with #6 shot that I trust to 25-30yds depending on conditions, and the PRB load that is good for deer, hogs, and turkey.
 
Lonegun1894 said:
I have to use a shotgun........could care less what it is loaded with.
I have loads worked up with #6 shot that I trust to 25-30yds depending on conditions, and the PRB load that is good for deer, hogs, and turkey.
Same here in NC and I got it confirmed in writing (email) from the NC-WRC...went after one this spring with the .54cal smoothbore/PRB but was never was able to close the deal on one...so now it's wait for next spring to try and notch the .54 smooth.
Over the past several years I've done the load development and taken some with shot-loads out of three different 20ga Flintlock smoothbores, using different loads of 6's, then 7.5's, then 5's, and finally 4's.
But now its come down to taking one with a PRB like the settlers did...that'll be all I hunt them with until I get it done.
 
I shoot a jug choked 16 (66cal) fowler and my pattern is real good at 25, ok at 30 and iffy at 35. There might be 8-10 in the vitals at 35 but theres close to 20 at 25yd and the rest are close by. I killed one a 18, 20, 25 and 38. The 38 yd shot would not have been taken but he was walking away with neck stretched. I was counting on getting some in the spine. Wings were not a factor. I myself would not push my luck on one that distance,unlesss I felt real lucky that day.I have taken all the birds I shot at so far but I had 2-3 squirrels get away that I know were hit. one climbed down the tree stunned and dripping blood as I was reloading. What I have learned is squirrels are real tough and keep your turkey shots close. I do know of a gobbler that had a 50 cal round ball pass completely thru his body from rear to breast (clean meat shot,no vitals or bones) and he was taken a few weeks later with a modern shotgun. So keep that in mind and shoot them broad side if you go with the patched round ball, the vitals are kinda hard to find. Good luck and it sounds like you have a nice "all game" setup.
 
BrownBear said:
Ha! :rotf:

At 15 feet and 20 feet, hitting the honkers was like hitting a beach ball with a baseball bat. The ducks were much the same. Quick reflexes sure, but the close ranges made it much easier than my buds were doing with pheasants in the open field!

Thanks for the doubtful kudos in any case! :grin:

I've seen some fairly experienced hunters blow shots like that, probably because they over-reflexed. There certainly are folks who can regularly call turkeys into 28 gauge range, I'm just giving them credit for the practice and skill it took to be really good. I remember reading about a famous African hunter who used 7 x 57 on Elephants and Cape Buffalo. He knew the animals, how to get close enough for that gun, where to shoot, when his gun was enough, and most importantly when it was not enough. Can't have enough respect for that kind of experience and knowledge.
 
T.O. said:
the vitals are kinda hard to find.
Unless people specifically study vital locations ahead of time, most people hold too low...a turkey's vitals are actually up pretty high:

 
So should I take it that using a heavier shot load, as well as larger shot is still not likely to give enough pellets on target to be useful beyond 30 yds?

I'd much prefer to use a 20 or 12 ga, but the few I've looked at command a hefty price. Since my Lyman's takes a 15/16 barrel I cannot find anyone who'd be willing to make a smoothbore larger than a 28 ga.
 
I know this isn't a clear answer, but all I can say definitely is that it depends. I know I trust mine, but it took a bit of experimenting and load work up to get there. My initial tests were slightly disappointing, but I had read enough here that I was convinced that I just hadn't stumbled onto the correct combination with my gun yet, and it turns out that I was right for once. With mine being a 15/16" barrel like you're talking about, and mine being 32" long, it handles great for stationary targets, like deer, hogs, and turkeys, but it is NOT a good dove gun for example. If you want a light quick handling gun, this isn't the way to go, but if you want a good compromise between a heavy rifle and a light bird gun, these are great.
 
For what it's worth, here are my loads. They may work in yours as they are, may need some tweaking, or may just frustrate you, but they work in mine. I hope this helps.

Light: 55grs FFFG, 3 cards, 3/4 oz #6 shot, 1 card
>
>Heavy: 70 grs FFFg, 2 cards, 6" jute twine nest, 1.5oz shot, 1 card
>
>PRB: 80grs FFFg, 4 cards, patched .527" ball


I also just found an old Lyman .515" mold that casts at .517" that I haven't tried yet but that shows a lot of promise, as it allows me to use pillow ticking for patch cloth instead of having to use cards, so I shoule be able to treat this as a rifle load instead of the combinations I have been using.
 
Your heavy load looks promising.

It may very well be that a 28 ga smoothbore would only be good to 25 yds, and I could deal with that, but was hoping that a more dense shot load would allow it to be used a little further.
 
Just keep in mind that the loads I listed I worked up in a 15/16" full octagonal barrel, and not a thin-walled light weight bird gun, so be careful as I have no idea if this is safe or not in a light barrel.
 
That was something else I had noticed while asking about boring out a 15/16 barrel. The Lyman's .54 cal barrel has grooves of .560" for RB's, and so I figured it could be bored out to 26 ga at least, but nobody was willing to go beyond 28 ga.
 
as a side note to what roundball said about the vitals we have a saying for bowhunting turkeys and it applies to muzzleloaders as well. hit them high watch them die, hit them low watch them go.
 
I'm not convinced that the switch to 26 ga. would be enough difference in performance to justify the time and expense. My feeling is that checking into the improvements made by jug choking the bore of your 28 bore or experimenting with paper or cloth shot cups as have been discussed here before would be a much less costly and more effective for tightening up the shot pattern. One of the first methods I ran across was making paper cartridges for ball and shot by Dick Weller back around 1970. He worked out a simple method for paper cartridges for ball & shot that worked great, at least for him and his original guns. His battery consisted of LLP & SLP Besses, a .62 caliber Baker rifle and an original William Clark fowler... (Must be nice to just shoot originals every day!). His secret, if secret it was, amounted to taking his time and getting the best out of what he had. He actually sifted his powder through a drop box with 3 or 4 layers of progressively finer screen to catch FFFG, FFg, & Fg on different levels and dropped the powder from some feet above on windy days to blow off the dust. He rolled paper cartridges for all his guns and used the string method to tie them off, above and below the ball in those rounds. He then dipped the ball end in a lube mix and let it dry, added the powder & folded the bottom of the paper cartridge in military fashion. He cast two different diameter balls, .760" and .750" for his original Besses since they had the true "musket bore" size of .775" in use by the British military.

His loading went quick and precise. Bite off folded cartridge base and pour powder in pan, then all the rest in the bore. Insert the .760" ball end of the cartridge (for the first shot) into the bore till the second string wrap at the base of the ball was even with the muzzle and then cut or tear it off at that point. All he loaded was the ball in it's lubed paper patch, if you will. The second shot was a .750" ball cartridge but loaded open end first after the powder was poured in the bore. This second shot had the ball sitting on the paper cartridge wrapper as a wad when loaded. It was quick and the smaller lubed ball loaded easier in the dirty bore. I never heard how many of the smaller ball loads would work before the bore was too fouled to load easily...i doubt it was more than a couple, but he wasn't holding off the 37e Infantry Leger, just big varmints...he actually took a bull moose.

The shot load was similar and differed only in that it had a over powder wad glued into the center of the cartridge and rolled up in the middle of the paper tube. His trick was to use the next size smaller wad for these cartridges...a 12 ga. wad in the 10 ga. Bess's bore, etc. The top end was filled with shot, tied off with string and had the same lube mix as the ball loads but brushed on with a small paint brush along the outside from the internal wad to the top of the cartridge, not including the top with it's twist of paper and string, you'll see why in a second. The bottom was filled with powder and folded shut like military cartridges were in the day. To load a paper shot cartridge, Dick bit off the fold, primed with a bit and poured the powder into the bore. He then inserted the paper cartridge open bottom end in first, stopping when the top tied twist was even with the muzzle. By holding the twist, he was able to cut the top of the paper cartridge off with a patch knife and push an over shot card onto the load before ramming the whole load down. He took ducks and geese with the fowler and Bess as well as moose and bear with the LLP Bess. He did the same with the .610" ball in the Baker's .625" bore. His method was really quick and simple, the only part that was time consuming was locating and buying the different sizes of screen material for his powder separation box. Just for reference, I will point out that he used 5 drams of FFg for his Besses, a pretty big load of over 136 grains which was actually chronographed at 1100fps by Bob Zwirz for the pictured article done for the "Black Powder Gun Digest" in 1972. This same system should work in any bore size if a little care is taken to work out the powder & shot amounts and wad sizes. I toss this out as another idea for improving pattern effectiveness. Other shot cup methods mentioned for smooth bores here are probably just as effective but I doubt few are as quick and easy. Dick carried his loads in a military style cartridge box that held tools and extra flints. Hunting with minimal gear. I found his method simple and well thought out. Never tried it on moose, not may of those big snorters around central Texas! :thumbsup:
 
Ever work with a heavier charge?

I had never heard of a jug choke and Googled it. Very interesting. I found the patterning guide and found that what I'm after would likely require a modified choke. But I'm wondering if I were to jug choke a 28 ga smoothbore and load it heavy if I could get close to the pattern a modified choke would give. If not maybe I'd have to find a smith to do some surgery. I'm an OK shot, but doubtful I'd be among the ones who would pull off something like Brown Bear. If I did I'd certainly have to call it luck.

Thanks, all, for the input!
 
I certainly have enjoyed making paper cartridges for my pistol, and would have to look deeper into trying this as well! Thanks!
 
I have worked with heavier charges, but kept coming back to one complication. If I increased powder without increasing shot load, I would open the patterns. If I increased shot load without increasing powder, I eventually got to where I could not reliably penetrate a tin can, so had doubts about the effectiveness on game. The heavy load I listed was the tightest pattern I could get with my .54 without going overboard enough that I really should be carrying my 13ga instead. I ended up working up those three loads, and every so often, I play with a #4 buckshot load (which is very close to the original "swan shot" size), but haven't spent enough time to get a load I am truly happy with on that, so mostly use these two (light and heavy) #6 shot loads and the PRB load.

If it helps, the 28ga with heavy loads has what many call a long shot string, where not all the pellets arrive on the target at the same time. This is an advantage on stationary targets, like turkey heads, but a huge disadvantage on small fast targets like dove. This is why I have the light and the heavy load. The light load gets used for small fast targets, while the heavy load gets used for when I expect a stationary one.
 
Most turkey hunters consider the 12 gauge at the minimum end of choices, the 10 gauge is the optimum.

The 28 gauge is not much better than a .410.
 
Richard Eames said:
Most turkey hunters consider the 12 gauge at the minimum end of choices, the 10 gauge is the optimum.

The 28 gauge is not much better than a .410.

Richard, please share your ML turkey experience and photos with us:

1) How many turkeys have you taken with smoothbore muzzleloaders?
2) What gauge muzzleloaders did you take them with?
3) What were the distances?
 
Richard Eames said:
Most turkey hunters consider the 12 gauge at the minimum end of choices, the 10 gauge is the optimum.

The 28 gauge is not much better than a .410.

Richard, all of mine have been taken with various 20ga smoothbore Flintlocks, including one at 43 yards with a load of #4s...my next turkey will be taken with a 28ga.

Please share your ML turkey experience and photos with us:

1) How many turkeys have you taken with smoothbore muzzleloaders?
2) What gauge muzzleloaders did you take them with?
3) What were the distances?
 
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