Is A 28 ga Enough?

[rodwha]

"The 28 gauge is not much better than a .410."

That was my sentiment as well, though, with a muzzleloader I wouldn't be constrained to a shot load, and could load up with a shot charge common to a 20 ga, and maybe even more, though it may reduce the powder charge too much and render it useless for reaching out.

I'd certainly prefer a 12 ga over a 20 ga, but I wouldn't stay home if what I had was a 20 ga. I see Federal shows 6 shells in 20 ga meant for turkey hunting. Not ideal, but certainly not to be counted out.

If it weren't for the ability to load heavier charges I wouldn't consider a 28 ga for much.

 

[crockett]

Not to repeat myself but if you have a shotgun that puts a killing number of pellets on the target (turkey head/neck) at a reasonable range- it would seem you are good to go. GENERALLY you probably have a better chance of getting that with a large load of pellets but, never say never. When I first came to Florida I read a book about some guy that killed a couple a hundred turkey with a 410. He got close and the gun simply put all the pellets on target. An expert type situation.
On a muzzle loading shotgun, is there any type or shot cup of similar devise that can be used to produce a tighter pattern?

 

The trouble is that we are not dealing with self contained cartridges which limit shot capacity.

 

[crockett]

That's my view, I don't want to say the 28 isn't up to the task, whitetail deer have been killed with 7 1/2 shot if at point blank range but it just seems to me that hunting turkey with a 28 gauge is going to be a handicap. If, on the other hand, that is all you have and you don't want to spend money on another gun, then so be it. Pattern the 28 and figure out what the effective range is and go with what you have.

 

[FishDFly]

“Not to repeat myself but if you have a shotgun that puts a killing number of pellets on the target (turkey head/neck) at a reasonable range”-

Please define the number of required killing pellets on the target(turkey head/neck) at a reasonable range, what is a reasonable range? My definition, is dead right there, not tracking wounded critters in heavy woods.

“The trouble is that we are not dealing with self contained cartridges which limit shot capacity. “

Granted, my Lyman Black Powder Book does not list shotgun loads for 410 or 28 guage, what is your proven load for 28 gauge on turkey? Could it be 1 ½ 0z, that is max. for a 12 gauge?

“I'd certainly prefer a 12 ga over a 20 ga, but I wouldn't stay home if what I had was a 20 ga. I see Federal shows 6 shells in 20 ga meant for turkey hunting. Not ideal, but certainly not to be counted out.”

This is why I do not lease my land in Texas. There are way too many folks with little experience when it comes to actual hunting and experience with firearms. Folks want to use firearms which are not suitable to the task, they lack hunting experience and have no tracking ability.

My neighbor and I go to own on opening day of deer season and go at lunch at the local BBQ joint and listen to the hunters talk. Dressed in full camo, (face and clothing), they talk about the number of sound shots they got that morning.

I have a friend who sells deer corn at his feed store. Couple of guys walked in and said they needed 15 bags of deer corn. He said fine, what kind of corn do you want, their response was “deer” corn. His response was, are you hunting “bucks” or “does”, bucks.

They asked why the difference in corn types. He said I sell buck corn and I sell doe corn, and I need to know what deer you are hunting, bucks or does.

They had no clue.

In parts of Texas hunters have become so lazy, there are now services where you can drop off your deer and they will “gut” your deer, if you are so lazy to do that you should have your rifle taken away from you.

 

[roundball]

Pattern the 28 and figure out what the effective range is and go with what you have.

Exactly...the primary challenge of turkey hunting is calling them in close anyway...my closest was 18yds using #7.5s out of a 32" GM .62cal smoothbore barrel in a T/C Hawken stock.
I like to drop them in their tracks / DRT and the light 7.5's at ML velocities weren't satisfactory to me...had to step on their necks for a minute.
Would have been a chip shot in a 28ga with #5's or 6's at that range.

Next I experimented with #5s in a jug choked 20ga GM and they did a number on a couple of them standing next to a decoy I had set at 25yds.

Then I experimented with 4's in a Jug Choked Rice 20ga barrel and what a pattern...knocked my next one down and broke a wing at 43 steps.

So, yes, the way my 42" 28ga patterns at 25yds, taking one at 20-25yds will make meat, no question.

 

[BrownBear]

Hands-on experience trumps reading and theory, don't it? :rotf:

 

[rodwha]

I have absolutely no idea how these two statements mate up together. Are you saying that a 20 ga is a small game gun???

My statement: “I'd certainly prefer a 12 ga over a 20 ga, but I wouldn't stay home if what I had was a 20 ga. I see Federal shows 6 shells in 20 ga meant for turkey hunting. Not ideal, but certainly not to be counted out.”

Your retort: "This is why I do not lease my land in Texas. There are way too many folks with little experience when it comes to actual hunting and experience with firearms. Folks want to use firearms which are not suitable to the task, they lack hunting experience and have no tracking ability."

I don't even care to comment on the rest of your statement.

 

[FishDFly]

I sent you a PM attempting to help you with increasing your knowledge with a club in your home town that has some of the top shooters in Texas along with the state's M/L club's contacts and it's shoot dates.

Not much else I can do to help you.

 

[roundball]

Hands-on experience trumps reading and theory, don't it? :rotf:

No shortage of theory and mid-information, LOL

 

[FishDFly]

Delete

 

[crockett]

I use the pattern in the NRA Turkey Hunting Book:
http://www.google.com/imgres?sa=X&...&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0,i:108&tx=63&ty=95

My goal is 6 plus pellets in a vital area on that target for 80% of the shots. I realize some may want that with 100% of the shots. My "range" is 30 yards. I know that some guys have guns that pattern well enough to make 40 yard plus hits.

 

[Swamp Rat]

I must admit that I do not have any experience in the BP field with turkeys. But I do have a good bit with killing turkeys, missing turkeys and running down turkeys. Those birds seem to twist you around for the most awful shot some times. I very seldom hunt private land birds as I don't find them much of a challenge But do enjoy a easy one every so often. :wink: .
a pellet traveling at 1200fps from the muzzle be it bp/410/10ga/cannon all have the same energy. The difference is number of shot of that particular size. I've killed turkeys with 7-1/2's and my daughters have also out to 25's. I believe this gives me a 5 yard buffer to where I would stop using 7-1/2's for energy sake.
So lets look at pellet counts on a 1oz load that I have used on turkeys.
2's = 90
4's = 135 The pellet size I have wounded/lost or have had to run down most birds with.
5's = 170 Only killed two or so with 5's.
6's = 225 My preferred pellet size out to 45yds but use the 5 yard buffer rule and limit shots to 40yds.
7's = 291 Only 1 bird...those shells are expensive and 6's would have worked just as good.
7-1/2's = 350 5 birds with me and the daughters and nephews. closest 8ft longest right at 25+/- a yard or two.

The 6's at 1200fps has killed LLLLLOTs of turkeys at 40yds gives the most pellet count for hitting that little neck bone your trying to break and does a fine job. So if you think 4's is the way to go because it has so much more energy, your just opening yourself up to missing that neck bone....been there done that enough to know better.
If your shooting a small gauge or any gauge and you can not get a good pattern with 6's at 25's or possiable 30yds try 7's or 7-1/2's the higher pellet count might give you your best pattern for breaking that neck.
one other thing I have learned over the years is one pattern does not mean you found your perfect load. Shoot several and see what the average pattern looks like. I've had patterns change quite a bit from shot to shot with everything being equal.

 

[rodwha]

Much appreciated!

 

[roundball]

Yeah, modern shotgun stuff is wonderful...used them and reloaded for them for a wide variety of game, trap, and skeet for decades, etc...but all that really has no bearing on this black powder discussion.

There is very little useful information or comparison that can be made between using modern shotguns, modern high velocity shotshells, modern plastic shot cups, out of modern choked barrels.

Blackpowder smoothbores, with lower velocity and shooting bare bore / no shot cups is an entirely different ball game.
Only the load development you do using the particular BP smoothbore you happen to have in your hands at the range will show you the best results from balancing the following items:
Powder type
Powder charge
Type of wads
Amount / size of wads
Shot pellet size
Shot charge size

All have to be juggled to achieve the most effective pattern you need at a particular distance from YOUR particular smoothbore.

EXAMPLE:
20ga Early Virginia, 38" Jug Choked barrel
Load of #4s put this one down at 43 steps like he'd been hit with a sledge-hammer:

 

[rodwha]

You mentioned BP smoothbore lower velocity.

Looking at loading data for a .54 cal conical showed nearly 1500 fps for a 1 oz conical. Would this not be similar if using 1 oz of shot?

Having looked at loads for the 20 ga I see they tend to range from mid 1100 to mid 1300 fps, and figured a heavier shot charge of 1 1/4 or more would still give me similar velocities to those of the 20 ga loads of similar weight.

Who does jug choking?

 

[BrownBear]

Looking at loading data for a .54 cal conical showed nearly 1500 fps for a 1 oz conical. Would this not be similar if using 1 oz of shot?

It's kind of fascinated me while looking at load tables without doing my own chrono work to confirm. But when you compare the two with the same powder charge, the shot loads are always slower.

I suspect it's a case of more "resistance" to a PRB going down the bore, compared to abuncha loose shot and wads. But that's pure SWAG.

There's a bigger issue- As the powder charge goes up beyond a certain point, patterns almost universally seem to get worse and worse, whatever the cause. Whether in muzzleloaders or BP shotshells, patterns really go haywire when velocities get up to "modern" levels.

But even in modern shotshells with modern powder and wads, there's some kind of upper limit on velocity and patterns with lead shot. Pump a lead shot load up to 1500+ fps as you can with steel and such, and patterns are all over the place.

All that makes me think shot deformation with lead shot is the culprit.

Put it all in a bottle, shake and pour, and I get this: I'm happy to trade lower vels for better patterns. Choose the right combo of shot size and amount for good hits and penetration, and there's no reason to pine for more velocity.

 

[crockett]

That's always been my understanding, the pellet velocity on the muzzle loading shotgun is somewhat less than a modern load and- I guess I just guessed- but I figured it must be due to a tighter seal with the modern type shotcups.
Been thinking this whole thing over a bit, last spring I had 4 jakes come about on top of me and on PUBLIC land- maybe 25 feet away and they just wouldn't leave, hung around about 20 minutes- at that range (8 yards) I probably could have killed any of them with a 410 and 7 1/2 shot. I'm not much for "short beards". In any event, turkey hunting can be a varied thing, I normally think in terms of what is suitable for the longest shot I may have to make. Obviously at a close range a 28 would be fine.

 

[BrownBear]

In any event, turkey hunting can be a varied thing, I normally think in terms of what is suitable for the longest shot I may have to make. Obviously at a close range a 28 would be fine.

You did a good job of summing up this sport in general. We have to assess the limits of our gear and skills, and act accordingly. Doesn't matter if we choose a 410 or an 8 gauge, or for that matter a 40 caliber or a 75 caliber. There are limits we impose on ourselves by choosing muzzleloaders in the first place.

The onus is on us individually to respect those limits, even when no one is watching.

 

[Britsmoothy]

http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles/muzzleloadingshotgunvelocities

B :thumbsup: