Is it LOADED?

[Vaino]

After a rainy day of grouse hunting, I was cleaning the 2 Rem. mod. 870s and when I got to my Dad's gun, the slide wouldn't come back which told me it was cocked. Thought of just pointing it out the window and pulling the trigger to decock it.....but didn't. Pressed the slide release button and pulled the slide back and out came a shotgun round. Remembered this incident the rest of my life......Fred

 

[Grimord]

When I was teaching the hunter safety course 30+ years ago, it was a teaching moment for me to take a lever action rifle and put 2-3 dummy rounds in the gun with one in the chamber. The gun was placed on a table at the rear of the class. Discussions were held regarding how to check firearms to see if they were loaded. At about that time I would ask someone in the rear of the room to bring up the lever action rifle to show the unloading process. It never failed, some enthusiastic young fellow would jump and grab the gun and start to bring it up to the front of the class to me. I would stop him midway and ask if he had checked to see if the gun was loaded. Sheepishly, he would say no, and I would ask him to point the gun at the ground and work the lever. When that dummy round hit the ground you could hear a collective gasp from the class.
Needless to say, it really drove home the point to verify a gun is unloaded.

 

[Pete G]

.
Any way it’s always been my believe that muzzle loaders aren’t “loaded” until the source of Ignition is applied. Until then it’s pretty much an inert piece of steel and wood. Of course in the case of flint locks where the ignition source is usually always present it’s a different story or is the flint removed after firing.

I rather routinely charge my black powder revolvers with powder at home before a trip to the range, and at the range the gun is considered safe until the percussion cap is placed.

They may be considered unloaded by some, but they sure ain’t safe.

 

[Sooty Scot]

They may be considered unloaded by some, but they sure ain’t safe.

Legally, they may not be a "loaded" weapon, but "unloaded" is putting a lot of faith in a reasonably stable explosively combustible compound.
To misquote from Jurassic Park, Nature can find a way & Murphy is always ready to help.

 

[Whughett]

Legally, they may not be a "loaded" weapon, but "unloaded" is putting a lot of faith in a reasonably stable explosively combustible compound.
To misquote from Jurassic Park, Nature can find a way & Murphy is always ready to help.

Yet you will store it in your domicile.

Just quipping man.

With out a source of ignition it’s as safe as any other combustible.
IMO the danger of a charge in a long gun is someone not knowing that and unknowingly supplying the ignition.
Think I’ll pop a cap, make sure the nipples clear before I load her.

 

[Muley Gil]

IIRC, most state hunting regulations consider a muzzle loader as being "safe" as long as the percussion cap has been removed or the flintlock pan is empty.

 

[SDSmlf]

IIRC, most state hunting regulations consider a muzzle loader as being "safe" as long as the percussion cap has been removed or the flintlock pan is empty.

Legally correct, as long as nothing goes wrong, but if something goes wrong then it’s on you.

Have posted this before. A good sparking flintlock will light up the main charge with an empty pan, legally loaded or not. Tried this a few years back with a couple of guns with empty pans and 1/16” and 5/64” touch holes. Didn’t take more than a handful of attempts before the ‘ah ha’ moment with each gun. When carrying or storing and not intending to shoot, always suggest a plugged vent hole and a hammer stall. Like wearing a belt even if you are using suspenders. Difference is, you may look silly if your pants drop or you reveal plumbers crack, but with a flintlock you may put a hole in something or someone that really doesn’t need it.

 

[Treestalker]

IIRC, most state hunting regulations consider a muzzle loader as being "safe" as long as the percussion cap has been removed or the flintlock pan is empty.

I read somewhere about a test that showed a flintlock could still bounce a spark through the touch hole and fire the main charge with an empty pan every fifteenth shot! I don't trust anything around powder that makes a spark, so unless the flint is missing, I consider it loaded.

 

[Notchy Bob]

If there is powder in there, it is loaded. Even "blank" loads are dangerous at close range. With powder and projectile, you bet it's loaded, whether it is capped or primed or not.

Thanks to the OP for posting this important topic. It's always a good idea to check old guns and wall hangers for their load status before proceeding with any other work.

There was a story in Muzzle Blasts many years ago about a percussion wall hanger that had been left loaded. The priming compound in old-time percussion caps was not secured as well as it is in modern caps, and there was evidently some residue left on the nipple, even though there was not an actual cap in place. Somebody cocked the piece and pulled the trigger. That little bit of cap residue was just enough to light up the main charge, and the black powder did what it was supposed to do. If I remember correctly, nobody was hurt, but several folks were more surprised than pleased.

Any firearm should be always treated as if it is loaded. If there is a powder charge in the gun, it is loaded.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[flntlokr]

Wow, smokeless... I've been shooting BP since mid 70's, modern stuff a lot younger... I believe when it says BP only on the barrel.... have seen so many videos on the internet(me an old stuffed shirt) about the perils of smokeless in older and replica arms... why don't others believe with the representative evidence? They say doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome....

Lots of know-nothings out there. They think all pwders that get shot in guns are gunpowder. They don't know (or care) about the difference until they blow them selves up.

 

[Bighorserider]

It was a long time ago so I don't remember the details, but I was at a range working on a flinter I knew was loaded so it was pointed down range. I pulled the trigger to check the function with an empty pan, and it fired. Shocked me but no harm done.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

they are LOADED!!!
Larry

My ole man was an NRA instructor, did scouts and Paris Island.
During the 5 day class, he would hand each student a rifle, at different times.
Any that did not clear it, failed and came back the next week.

Every firearm is loaded until YOU see that it is not.
Its the number one rule for a reason.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

My ole man was an NRA instructor, did scouts and Paris Island.
During the 5 day class, he would hand each student a rifle, at different times.
Any that did not clear it, failed and came back the next week.

Every firearm is loaded until YOU see that it is not.
Its the number one rule for a reason.

To expound on your reply........But still handle as though it is loaded!
Your father taught well!
Larry

 

[SciAggie]

it is the way

This is the way.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I recently bought a Civil-War era gun in wall hanger condition from a reputable seller. In the product description, they said "the bore is so full of crud we could only get a rod six inches into the bore." The nipple was broken off so only the threaded shank remained, rusted in.

I got it home and we all know what the first priority was. I kept it pointed in a safe direction and poured warm water into the nipple hole and down the bore... enough to make sure everything was saturated. Whatever was in the bore felt kind of spongy to a probe. I then got after the "crud" with a worm on a stout rod, with frequent, additional doses of warm water. I finally started getting out fingernail-sized bits of debris. These bits, which appeared to be some kind of fabric, gradually got larger as I kept working at it, and I eventually pulled out some pretty good sized chunks. It felt like I hit bottom with the worm, so I poured in some more water and saw it flowing out the nipple hole. Yay!

The gun had not been left loaded. The "crud" was indeed some kind of lacy, knitted fabric, maybe from a fancy curtain. Who knows why it was in there... Some people have weird compulsions to stick things in gun barrels. The rangers at Castillo de San Marcos in St. Augustine told me they find all kinds of odd things in the cannon barrels, put in by tourists.

In any event, we were lucky this time. If it's a muzzleloader that's new to me, I like to check whether it's loaded or not first thing.

Respectfully, if it has powder in it, I consider it loaded. Primed/capped or not, projectile or not. I suppose even a "blank" load could give a nasty surprise.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[SOLANCO]

Unless a firearm is disassembled, I consider it loaded.

Visited the USS New Jersey with a friend. He asked could you imagine if any of the 16 inchers were still loaded?

 

[BJHabermehl]

I read somewhere about a test that showed a flintlock could still bounce a spark through the touch hole and fire the main charge with an empty pan every fifteenth shot! I don't trust anything around powder that makes a spark, so unless the flint is missing, I consider it loaded.

In my own experiments I found the odds were closer to one in five. This was with a well tuned custom built gun.
I was at a hunter ed course helping teach when we had a break, I was showing our Game Warden my favorite flintlock hunting rifle. This was a fall course during the early muzzloading season here in Pa. I had pulled the ball and cleared most of the powder with a breech scraper. In preparation for reloading as soon as I got back into the woods. We were discussing this exact subject. We got a a ka foof on the first drop of the flint on the frizzen, with the gun pointed in a safe direction. No priming powder at all just what ever residue powder that was in the cone of the white lightning liner of the rifle. This was out doors and at a gun club range.

 

[Treestalker]

In my own experiments I found the odds were closer to one in five. This was with a well tuned custom built gun.
I was at a hunter ed course helping teach when we had a break, I was showing our Game Warden my favorite flintlock hunting rifle. This was a fall course during the early muzzloading season here in Pa. I had pulled the ball and cleared most of the powder with a breech scraper. In preparation for reloading as soon as I got back into the woods. We were discussing this exact subject. We got a a ka foof on the first drop of the flint on the frizzen, with the gun pointed in a safe direction. No priming powder at all just what ever residue powder that was in the cone of the white lightning liner of the rifle. This was out doors and at a gun club range.

Holy Repitition, Batman!

 

[user 51067]

Range rule #1-ALL GUNS ARE LOADED ALWAYS and should be handled as such.

 

[French Colonial]

5-6 guys standing in a circle at the range waiting while others post targets, one guy goes over and gets a handgun to show it off and hands it to another guy in the circle, how do you hold it so it is not pointed at someone?

Don't know, we all scattered, probably looked like a covey of quail taking off.