Is It Safe To Rest The Hammer On The Cap?
- Thread starter Mulebrain
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
There are several historical examples of people in the mid 1800s carrying thier muzzleloaders loaded with a cap on the nipple.
Appearently this was rather common on the Oregon and California trails.
The reason I know of this is because I have read the documented writings of a number of people who made the trip in the 1840s. They recorded the deaths of a number of people who died while pulling their guns out of their wagons, muzzle first.
I have also seen where some of the Anti-Gun folks have cited this claiming that the guns were bigger dangers to the immigrants than the Indians.
Appearently this was rather common on the Oregon and California trails.
The reason I know of this is because I have read the documented writings of a number of people who made the trip in the 1840s. They recorded the deaths of a number of people who died while pulling their guns out of their wagons, muzzle first.
I have also seen where some of the Anti-Gun folks have cited this claiming that the guns were bigger dangers to the immigrants than the Indians.
Who you calling old boy :haha: I am the ripe old age of 37!
Well, I really appreciate all the responses.
I am new to this forum, and found you guys by accident!
I think we have a long and prosperus road ahead!
I know one thing, I would never grab a gun muzzle first!
:front:
Well, I really appreciate all the responses.
I am new to this forum, and found you guys by accident!
I think we have a long and prosperus road ahead!
I know one thing, I would never grab a gun muzzle first!
:front:
They recorded the deaths of a number of people who died while pulling their guns out of their wagons, muzzle first.
I know it's bad, but we need to see that in Hollywood!
This we be a good tool, to teach folks not to pull :haha:
I know it's bad, but we need to see that in Hollywood!
This we be a good tool, to teach folks not to pull :haha:
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2005
- Messages
- 1,344
- Reaction score
- 39
On the other thread regarding this subject I was riducled for my view on how unsafe this practice is. Thank you everybody for letting these people know the truth about how unsafe it is to carry the gun that way. I know half cocked is not the best way to carry a gun either but it is a heck of a lot safer than carrying the thing with the hammer resting on the thing that makes it go boom!!
Funny thing about guns all my friends that own cartridge pistols always leave the hammer down on a empty chamber even if the pistol is designed not to have to be carried that way. I was at a gun shop today checking out some wheel guns and some Rugers had big warnings written on them warning about carrying them with all six chambers loaded. They were known as "Three screw Blackhacks" and the firing pin could still set off the gun while being carryed as designed.
I have had safeties fail on modern guns as well so why add another factor to the chance of getting hurt? I was also wondering if the same people who carry their muzzleloaders this way also carry their model 94's the same way
Funny thing about guns all my friends that own cartridge pistols always leave the hammer down on a empty chamber even if the pistol is designed not to have to be carried that way. I was at a gun shop today checking out some wheel guns and some Rugers had big warnings written on them warning about carrying them with all six chambers loaded. They were known as "Three screw Blackhacks" and the firing pin could still set off the gun while being carryed as designed.
I have had safeties fail on modern guns as well so why add another factor to the chance of getting hurt? I was also wondering if the same people who carry their muzzleloaders this way also carry their model 94's the same way
JackAubrey
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 586
- Reaction score
- 5
Personally I believe "MURPHY" was an optimist.If that weapon discharges it will be exactly when it would do the most damage.For the sake of yourself,loved ones,innocent bystanders and even the shooting community please do not carry w/ the weapon in battery.I use the Kap Kover on most of my sporting/ hunting guns and am well pleased w/ them.I noticed a post noting one could carry the hammer down on a CB revolver betwixt the capped cylinders.Before doing so carefully inspect the replica.Some replicas have a pin between the cones that correspond to a slot in the hammer.Test these however.Often,these pins are too small to prperly "lockup".If the pins are not present or are too small and the hammer is placed between the cones and the cylinder manages to rotate the hammer will snap down on the next cone.Will it snap hard enough to detonate the cap...who knows?The 1858 Remingtons had a slot cut into the back of the cylinder providing a theoretically superior lockupalthough I had to cut these myself. I have not personally seen any replica Remingtons w/ this feature but that is not to say they dont exist.Jack.
Point well taken sir, and your comment on reaffirming the "basics" is right on point. I sincerely hope my comment above was taken in the friendly, concerned spirit intended....
However, certainly I rather be thought a bad fellow for "piling on" on this particular subject than hear of someone getting hurt for thinking this was even a good idea to experiment with. There is no such thing as half safe with firearms as far as I am concerned. Muzzle control is only one variable... brain control is by far the most important :imo:
I was taught at an early age the discipline of muzzle control and firearm safety. That was reiterated very well to me with the old Stevens bolt action 20 ga. That I took on my first squirrel hunts. That old gun had this intrinsic little habit of firing when you closed the bolt of the gun if the safety was on.
As Dave K put it- muzzle pointed the wrong place= muy mal!
One of my firearms instructors back when I went through the academy summed it up well when he taught the "laser rule."
This "rule" dictated that the barrel of any firearm should be seen as emitting a laser beam that travels through and at anything/body that the barrel points at. The laser also ricochets off hard objects (just like real bullets). While this little rule was not a new concept to those of us used to the safe handling of firearms, I found that it was a great illustration for those just becoming acquainted with firearms and also a good reminder for everyone.
As Dave K put it- muzzle pointed the wrong place= muy mal!
One of my firearms instructors back when I went through the academy summed it up well when he taught the "laser rule."
This "rule" dictated that the barrel of any firearm should be seen as emitting a laser beam that travels through and at anything/body that the barrel points at. The laser also ricochets off hard objects (just like real bullets). While this little rule was not a new concept to those of us used to the safe handling of firearms, I found that it was a great illustration for those just becoming acquainted with firearms and also a good reminder for everyone.
True, and Civil War guns also have a half cock notch on them as well...
Now I will ask this, why would you have the hammer on the cap in the first place for hunting?
Think about this, from the half cock position to the full cock, there is only one "click" when the sear engages the notch...
From the full fire position (hammer on cap) there is two distinct clicks, one when the sear past the half cock and one when the sear engages the full cock notch...
That is extra noise to spook game plus extra hammer travail time to get back up to full cock to fire the gun...
:imo: It just doesn't seem worth it to this scarecrow...
While I do most certainly agree that carrying with the hammer on the cap is very unsafe...a no no. Carrying one on half cock while hunting is perfectly acceptable to me PROVIDED that one tests thier gun to ensure the half cock position functions as designed. I use a renegade...at half cock you can pull either the front or rear trigger and nothing happens. IF the hammer falls during the test that gun is unsafe. Regarding the Win 94...had one for years and years...never had a problem with it on half cock for hunting. I think that perhaps today...there are so many folks that simply don't have thier wits about them, that are the cause of accidents. One thing that was mentioned on prior posts..."going into the woods together"....huh? No one I ever hunted with went in pairs. Yeah..pheasant hunting or duck hunting I can see that.. but deer and other big game? I've been hunting for over 50 years...had hunting partners that are now long dead...and never ever did anyone do something stupid. Or, have an "accident." I suppose in truth, a lot depends on where one is hunting. Where we used to hunt before I moved west...one could go for miles and never run into someone from another hunting party. Perhaps one of the hazards today is the number of hunters that don't want to expend the energy to get "away from the crowd" and they all tend to congregate on the fringes of the woods, forests rather than pack thier way in deeper.
WV_Hillbilly
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2005
- Messages
- 707
- Reaction score
- 3
I really don't think anyone here is trying to condemn High Power for posting the question...
I think it's more like this...
Most everyone here puts "safety first", whenever they can, and no one would not want a shooter or bystander to be injured or killed, due to a practice that is considered by most as unsafe.
Most people here are pretty honest and speak their mind, without malicious intent towards anyone or their questions. I've been on other forums where every other post gets locked down, due to unwarranted personal attacks and flames. This place is about as friendly as it gets.
Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly
I think it's more like this...
Most everyone here puts "safety first", whenever they can, and no one would not want a shooter or bystander to be injured or killed, due to a practice that is considered by most as unsafe.
Most people here are pretty honest and speak their mind, without malicious intent towards anyone or their questions. I've been on other forums where every other post gets locked down, due to unwarranted personal attacks and flames. This place is about as friendly as it gets.
Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly
Guest
Does your Renegade have one trigger or two ? Mine has two and I do not trust the half cock . Put your hammer on half cock , then try to push the hammer down with your thumb . Does it move ? Mine does . :results:
A thought about half cock and double set triggers:
(You guys though I couldn't have one. I'll admit they don't come often, but when the do......it feels really wierd! )
Anyway, If the rear trigger is cocked on a set trigger, when it's released it is driven with heavy spring pressure into the sear arm.
The sear nose is hardened. Hard = brittle.
It is very possible that the impact of the set trigger blade on the sear arm will break the nose off of the sear. If the nose of the sear breaks, it doesn't matter if the sear was engaged with the half cock notch or not. THE HAMMER WILL FALL!!!
The possibility of breaking the sear nose off is exactly why those of you who practice your trigger release with your set triggers should make sure the weapon is unloaded, and uncapped, and the Hammer (or cock) is all the way down.
Simply put, don't trust the half cock if the gun is primed or capped. Especially if the set triggers are "set". :shocking:
(You guys though I couldn't have one
. I'll admit they don't come often, but when the do......it feels really wierd! )Anyway, If the rear trigger is cocked on a set trigger, when it's released it is driven with heavy spring pressure into the sear arm.
The sear nose is hardened. Hard = brittle.
It is very possible that the impact of the set trigger blade on the sear arm will break the nose off of the sear. If the nose of the sear breaks, it doesn't matter if the sear was engaged with the half cock notch or not. THE HAMMER WILL FALL!!!
The possibility of breaking the sear nose off is exactly why those of you who practice your trigger release with your set triggers should make sure the weapon is unloaded, and uncapped, and the Hammer (or cock) is all the way down.
Simply put, don't trust the half cock if the gun is primed or capped. Especially if the set triggers are "set". :shocking:
Okay..maybe I should have explained myself a bit better. There is a half cock position..and yes the hammer does move. However, there is what I would call a safety position on mine. When you cock mine..if you are careful...there is a position where the hammer is perhaps only 3/16 above the nipple. That is the position I was getting at in my original post. Now...I have no idea if this is something the original owner had added..but I tried the standard safety test as well as pushing on the[url] hammer...in[/url] the position I just described..nothing happens..I could not budge the hammer.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2005
- Messages
- 1,344
- Reaction score
- 39
I think Highpower asking this is a good thing and hold nothing against him for the post. It was very smart of him to ask us about how it works not the other way around. He knew it was hard to set the gun off by hitting the hammer and did not know about the other dangers so he asked us.
It is a very good post and I thank him for giving us all some new information on how some accidents occure. Cudo's for bringing this subject forward Highpower you may have saved a life!!
It is a very good post and I thank him for giving us all some new information on how some accidents occure. Cudo's for bringing this subject forward Highpower you may have saved a life!!
unspellable
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2005
- Messages
- 41
- Reaction score
- 3
Consider the Ruger Old Army. It has hammer rest notches half way between chambers. Suppose it were to be carried with the hammer in one of these notches. This places the cylinder half way between indexes. One chamber is aligned with the capping cutout and the cap on that nipple is relatively exposed. Suppose the revolver is dropped and lands cap first on a rock? (This might be the case with the Remington also.)
Regarding the half cock position, the hammer should be pulled to half cock, not lowered to half cock...
If you are at full cock, lower the hammer "PAST" the half cock position and then pull it back to half cock to engage the sear into the notch...
By lowering the hammer to the half cock position from full cock, you run the risk of the sear resting on the leading edge of the notch and not engaging the slot, then a slight bump will allow the sear to slip and the hammer to fall...
If you are at full cock, lower the hammer "PAST" the half cock position and then pull it back to half cock to engage the sear into the notch...
By lowering the hammer to the half cock position from full cock, you run the risk of the sear resting on the leading edge of the notch and not engaging the slot, then a slight bump will allow the sear to slip and the hammer to fall...
