Is this 1858 an original "real deal?"

[Jebidiah Springfield]

If I give you $1,100, will YOU throw in a holster

I'm completely kidding of course. Where did you find such a nice ones? And may I ask what would the originals sell for if I wanted to by an original, and where might there be one available?

 

[csaduck]

It is a Fake, another big red flag is no photo of the serial number, 99% of gunbroker sales of originals show the serial numbers of the revolvers. My guess is you could research the originals number and find out when it was built adding to the authincity of the revolver. In this case it would come back to an Italian factory.
Then there are the "File" marks (see Photo) looks almost like they just removed the screw and ran a file over the trigger guard and the frame at the same time.

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

Question, if I wanted to buy and original some time in the future, what price should I expect to pay?

 

[user 34300]

Somebody who has an account over there should alert the auction company and put the seller on notice.

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

I think gunbroker is basically caveat emptor

 

[Robert an saa fan]

Somebody who has an account over there should alert the auction company and put the seller on notice.

Have had a Gun Broker account for over 10 years. After messaging the seller saying not an antique, etc. got a Gun Broker confirmation of the message with a way to contact Gun Broker which can not be clicked on or made to work:

" . . . If you receive communication from any user that you feel violates our guidelines, may circumvent our commission fees, or that you feel may defraud you or other users of our site, please click here to confidentially send us questions about this activity. "

I think Gun Broker does not want to hear about fraud concerns due to the high volume of complaints they would have to deal with.

Jebidiah Springfield is right; caveat emptor .

Hopefully threads like this will alert some buyers to the dangers in some internet auctions.

 

[sawyer04]

This is typical of the counterfeit guns sold on all of the auction sites. It was intentionally "aged" to fool buyers

And a P.poor job at that.

 

[jonathan butcher]

What gets me more than anything is how blatant he is. He knows that anyone who knows anything about these guns will sooner or later spot the fakery, and in a number of ways. But he doesn't care. Because he also knows there's no penalty to be paid for posting a fraud. Amazing.

Have had a Gun Broker account for over 10 years. After messaging the seller saying not an antique, etc. got a Gun Broker confirmation of the message with a way to contact Gun Broker which can not be clicked on or made to work:

" . . . If you receive communication from any user that you feel violates our guidelines, may circumvent our commission fees, or that you feel may defraud you or other users of our site, please click here to confidentially send us questions about this activity. "

I think Gun Broker does not want to hear about fraud concerns due to the high volume of complaints they would have to deal with.

Jebidiah Springfield is right; caveat emptor .

Hopefully threads like this will alert some buyers to the dangers in some internet auctions.

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

Except that Karma is infallible...

 

[Ulk77more]

this looks like a defarbed older pietta first of all the lettering is to large to be original. pietta never hid their printing, and if you look at a close up of the rt side halfway between the hammer screw & grips you will see a very slight indention of an italian proof mark

 

[Ulk77more]

sad part is a defarbed 1858 replica usually gets between 900 and 1400

 

[toot]

Here is a photograph of another original 1858 that I own. I have posted it before. View attachment 68897

they sure are two beauty's.!!

 

[Notchy Bob]

First of all, thank you to @Jebidiah Springfield for presenting the original question and starting this thread. The question was a good one, and I think we should encourage members who have reservations about buying originals to present this sort of question to the forum. Some may be reluctant to do so, because if they believe they have found a really good deal, somebody may dart in and "buy it out from under him." However, I like to believe we are an honorable bunch of folks who would be more inclined to help a brother out than not.

I believe I am a reasonably well-informed blackpowder shooter, but my main areas of interest are sporting rifles and trade guns. I feel less well informed about military arms in general, and especially revolvers. In looking at the photos of the revolver in question, I was hoping to find a serial number, and I questioned the markings on the barrel. Thank you to the individual on this thread who posted the image of the barrel markings from an actual antique. It did appear the seller omitted photos of critical areas which might ID this revolver as a reproduction.

I also had some concerns about the shape of the grip, specifically the contour of the backstrap. The Italian builders seem to have some difficulty getting that area exactly right, although this may be intentional, to prevent confusion with original guns. I don't know.

I would disagree with those who stated the fake is obvious. Maybe to those who study these guns and have prior experience, but for a lot of reasonably well informed but not expert shooters hoping to start a modest collection, the forgery is not obvious at all. In my opinion, whoever "antiqued" that gun did a pretty good job. Screw heads have a worn appearance, and he even simulated holster wear on the muzzle. There are a number of people out there who specialize in "defarbing" modern-made reproductions, and they seem to be getting increasingly better at it, and more sophisticated in their approach. Most, we would hope, are responsible enough to preserve or put some marks in discreet locations that would identify the gun as non-original. However, even experts can be fooled sometimes. Stories about the Newtowne musket, and John Baird's mis-identification of a "Hawken" come to mind.

I think this is an area where forums such as this one really shine. It's good to know that questions like that in the original post can be presented, and knowledgeable and honorable people will respond with solid information and respect.

Good thread!

Notchy Bob

 

[Boom Stick]

Pretty obvious with the file marks and the lines on the barrel, loading lever, and the back of the pistol grip that indicate what looks like sandpaper being used to 'wear down the finish'.

I sent him a message telling him that it is an obvious fake and that being so informed that if the sale continued at that price with a listing of 'original' then he is on the hook for FRAUD.

The POS is more than likely scum and will risk the consequences anyway.....

 

[Relic shooter]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/894894004
I'm curious if this is an original 1858, or if it is a replica that has been "antiqued"

Thank you in advance for your help.

:0)

I also own & shoot original 58 Remingtons, one of the fastest & easiest ways to determine if you have an original is to examine the bore as originals have progressive-twist rifling & the rifling is also deeper.
*This being said, there are also a few replica 58 Remingtons around that also have progressive twist barrels. These were made primarily for competition shooters who wanted the superior accuracy these barrels produce. If you bought one of these don't feel too bad as when new they retailed for around $1,200-$1,400.
A SHORT EXPLANATION for those no familiar with gain or progressive-twist rifling.
This type of rifling is very beneficial in revolvers' , as the barrel's rifling has virtually no twist at the breech where barrel meets throat of the cylinder & jumps the gap. Not having any 'twist' at the breech provides the ball or bullet to properly seat & seal before engaging the faster-twist rifling further down the barrel.
*In replica revolvers that lack gain or processive-twist rifling most shooters use lighter charges often topped with cream of wheat as a filler on-top of the powder. This mix provides better accuracy & reduces 'stripping' or skidding as the ball/bullet jumps the gap. Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

Thank you everyone, I've learned quite a bit.
Still wet behind the ears though...

 

[dogfood]

I just got a reply for the seller about whether or not it's original in his eyes.
"Hi, good question. The auction is over it didn’t sell. I’ve looked into copyright laws. You cannot put a Company name on any item, without infringing on copyright laws. In the 1950’s Colt let their patent expire on their SAA peacemaker, and many copies were made. None had Colt written on them. This gun clearly states Remington. If it’s a one of a kind, maybe someone made one and got away with it. If others were made by a rouge company , I’m sure someone paid dearly for copyright infringement."

*SMH* that's some pretty weak reasoning there

 

[sourdough]

In the early 70's Colt started producing the 2nd Gen Models of various flavors using "raw" Uberti parts which were finished by Colt here in the US. As Uberti was producing/marketing their own line of replica Colt revolvers, they soon became a bit overwhelmed and subcontracted with Armi San Marco for barrels and other parts. When Colt stopped producing/marketing the 2nd Gen guns after the Bicentennial, both Uberti and ASM were left with parts Colt did not want anymore. Uberti could use those parts for their revolvers, but the ASM barrels were marked with a Colt New York address and were fairly well finished. ASM assembled quite a few of their revolvers with the Colt-marked barrels, mainly for the European market, but quite a few made it across the pond to the US. Colt caught wind of that and sued ASM, who had to cease and desist selling guns with those barrels.

Today, any of those ASM guns with barrels marked as such are worth a bunch on the US collector market. I have only seen two photos of two different revolvers, but they do exist.

Regards,

Jim

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

The fact that the photos are such they do not show info is enough evidence to show a "consciousness of guilt"
Seller clearly knows what he is doing.

 

[SDSmlf]

The fact that the photos are such they do not show info is enough evidence to show a "consciousness of guilt"
Seller clearly knows what he is doing.

And with no bids, appears all the potential buyers saw what was going on..... at least this go around.