Knife steel material

[wayne1967]

Is there a type of 1095 carbon steel that is used on anything around 1/8" thick that one can find around salvage yards?

 

[LRB]

If you don't have the right oil to quench it in, and a pretty sure way of getting the correct quench heat, you really don't want 1095. It is not user friendly for beginners, or backyard heat treating. Google up Admiral Steel and order some 1080. It is a very easy to HT steel, and will probably hold an edge better than 1095 that is improperly HT'd.

 

[wayne1967]

I'll give it a look. I read that 1095 is pretty easy to work with. I am a novice at this though. I've put alot of knives together but never formed a blade. Thanks.

 

[wayne1967]

Being HR will it work easily with a file?

 

[LRB]

Not as easy as most. HRA is what you would want, but even it most often is not spherodized annealed, and if not, it will eat drill bits like popcorn. Regardless of what you have read, 1095 is not that easy to work, and here is it's major problem. You cannot expect to get it fully hard if you quench at non-magnetic, and fully hard is the goal with any final quench. 1095 must be at 1475°to 1500° for the hardening quench, 1475°being the best to retard grain growth. Then comes the real clincher. When it goes into the quench, the quench medium must cool it to below 900° in under one second, or the carbon will not be locked into the proper condition, which would be an homogeneous solution of the carbon, and iron. The carbon and iron will instead be layered. This is a situation counterproductive to holding a good edge. This condition WILL pass the file test, but will not hold a good edge. Picture the carbon as tiny pebbles in modeling clay. A file would skate over the pebbles, but there are mega soft spots all through the clay ball. Now picture the clay ball as having very fine sand evenly mixed in it, and you have the idea. 1095 has very little manganese in it, which prevents this situation in the other 10xx steels when using slower coolants for quenching. The only quench oil that can be considered reliably fast enough to cool 1095 and prevent the carbon from leaving the solution is Parks #50, which is very expensive for a hobby knifemaker, and not easy to find in less than a large drum container. But I can tell you where to buy it in a 5 gal. bucket, at around $150.oo, if you want to know. 1080 steel can be quenched in most any thin oil from just a little above non-magnetic heat and makes a very good blade that holds a good edge. Often, and sometimes better than 1095 that did not get properly quenched. Iron will only absorb into solution about .8 of 1% of carbon. The left over carbides give the steel abrasion resistance, but need to be evenly distributed through out the steel, or they do little good, and in fact cause weak spots. 1080 will absorb all the carbon in the steel quickly, and easily in comparison largely because it has a good amount of manganese in it. Hope this helps, good luck.

 

[fatboy]

I had gota batch of this 1095 and of course found shaping it by hand (stock removal) proved a bit diffacult> To drill the handle pins it was a chore, wore one bit out ,I did get some solid carbide bits and had less of a problem still need to HT or send some where to heat treat not sure where yet . After more research and addvice and some of this came from a Master ABS smith 1080 and 5160 sounds a hole lot better. Try and make it easy on yourself.

 

[wayne1967]

Thanks for the info.

 

[ameling]

And a good cheap/scrap place to find 1084 or 5160 steel is lawn mower blades. They are generally made from either 1084 or 5160 - generally. And you can often get them for free, or scrap prices. You could even go to the store and buy a new lawn mower blade to use. They vary in thickness from 1/8 up to 1/4 inch thick, with 3/16 being pretty common. And from 2 inches wide up to over 3 inches wide. They also run from 18 to 24 inches long. That's a lot of steel to play with. The hardes part is working around those center mounting holes, and any words/numbers stamped into the blade by the maker.

Buy you will need to anneal them before filing. Just start up a campfire, chuck it in, get it red hot, and let the fire burn out (or pull the blade out and pack it in ashes or vermiculite to insulate it so that it cools slowly).

Even if you buy new lawn mower blades to start with, the price is pretty cheap.

Vehicle leaf springs used to be mostly made from 1095 steel. But nowdays who really knows? It would all depend upon manufacturer, year, model, etc. ANd that's IF you can find leaf springs - since so many vehicles now have coil springs or torsion bars.

Just a few humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[wayne1967]

I looked at leaf springs but could not find anything less than 1/4" thick. I figured lawn mower blades would be made out of mild steel as much stuff as they hit. Seems like the one on my mower gets a rounded edge really quick.

 

[LRB]

Lawn mower blades are tempered to give rather than shatter into shrapnel.

 

[wayne1967]

Wick, do you know what type of steel is usually used on commercial wood saw blade bodies? The wood plant I work at through out some carbite tipped 16" crosscut saw blades that are 1/8" thick. Didn't know if there was a standard type of metal used on these that could be identified. Thanks for all the info again.

 

[LRB]

You would need to locate the acual manufacturor and ask. There are a few different steels used for this. Now this is just a guess based on my thinking which is nothing to bet the farm on. Since the teeth are carbide, there would be no need for the rest of the blade to be really hi-tech expensive steel. It would need to be a shock resistant type though, possibly L-6, or even a simple 10xx tempered for toughness, rather than hardness, but that doesn't really help you. Hopefully the manufacturor would tell you. Someone at the plant may even have a spec sheet on the blades.

 

[dsuursoo]

if i might add to the discussion,

try using A2 tool steel. do simple stock removal with a grinder, it'll most likely be stronger and better than anything you could hammer out at the forge, with a consistent structure throughout the metal.

the metal air-quenches, too. a handy feature if you're just getting started, you don't have to risk a water/oil quench shattering the blade you're working on(but you won't be heating it with stock removal). it's also easier to have someone at a welding/metals shop do a tempering for you, as he'll actually know the properties of the metal, as opposed to some folded/forged peice of carbon steel that might be of questionable structure.

just the thoughts of someone who does a bit of stock-removal knifework and owns mostly knives made this way.

A-2 is available from onlinemetals.com, which is an outfit here in seattle that i've shopped at for more than a few things. great guys, good service, more than happy to cut it to any dimensions you wish(for a minor charge).

very agreeable shipping rates as well.

if you're insistent on doing quenches while you work, try O-2 steel. it's another tool steel that oil quenches. very controllable and fairly nice to work with as well.

 

[LRB]

While I agree on the forging part of your post, this guy, I assume, is a beginner. I doubt he would have an HT oven to be able to HT either one of those steels to anywhere near a proper HT. There are a few other steels much more friendly to someone without the proper equipment.

 

[dsuursoo]

While I agree on the forging part of your post, this guy, I assume, is a beginner. I doubt he would have an HT oven to be able to HT either one of those steels to anywhere near a proper HT. There are a few other steels much more friendly to someone without the proper equipment.

there are a lot of places where they'll heat treat for you. most welding shops can do it.

just tell them you need it to about 58c and that it's A-2, and they'll smile and ask for ten bucks.

you also need less equipment with stock removal techniques, as little as a hacksaw and a file. i reccomend getting bob loveless's book on knifemaking. it's hugely educational.

 

[LRB]

Yes, that IS a good book. I learned a lot from it, 30 or so years back. During the 80's, I worked with ATS-34, and 440-C. I sent my blades out to Paul Bos, who was, and still is one of the best heat treaters in the world, but I think you will find that most people into the various branches of the muzzleloading hobby that this board, and others similar to it cover, are more independant in nature, and like to do, or try projects on their own, with minimal outside help, other than info gathering. In the case of knifemaking, there are many talented folks here that can pull it off pretty well, in various degrees of involvement, from kit knives on up to a complete knife from scratch. Heat treat, and all. There are also a few pros here that are very good, and knowledgable. Your post brings up an important aspect of this, and that is the choice of steel. There is so much BS spread about, regarding mystery steels, that many are led into thinking that they can use any high carbon steel, and be able to HT it properly with simple equipment and methods. A one shoe fits all approach. In the case of saw blade knives, one would most often do best by leaving the HT as is, and just carefully shape the blade without ever over heating it. There is nothing wrong with this, and one will usually get a decent knife from it. Those that want to go from total scatch, and do their own HT, can get a successful blade from any of the higher carbon 10xx series of steel, say 1060, up to 1084, but not 1095. That one is not beginner friendly, and requires a higher tech HT than most will be capable of in their backyard. Any 10xx, between 1060, and 1084 can be easily HTed with a simple cheap oil, as long as it is reasonably thin, and a simple heat source, and a little knowledge. The HT may not be the absolute best, even for 10xx, but will make a usuable blade that the maker can take pride in, since he did it all himself, and the knife acually performs well. As far as forging, or using stock removal to make a knife, I think most know by now that there is no difference in the finished blade. The key to it all is in the HT. Many just enjoy shaping a blade with heat and hammer. It gives them the feeling that they are more in touch with history, same as shooting real black powder in a traditional gun. There is really nothing wrong with your suggestions. Your approach to the matter is quite sound. The only part I would question is allowing a common welding shop do the HT. I would not trust that without knowing the shops background, expertise, and what equipment/experience they have. Here is a small Bowie I made in 1985 of 440-C. HTed by Paul Bos.

 

[dsuursoo]

well said! :applause:

it's a great book, it taught me a great deal. studying a lot of the literature out there will give one of two impressions RE: heat treatment. it's either some mystical process in which your blade must point north(or south, depending on the alignment of the capricorn in the sphinx of your chakra's unicron or something like that), and be clamped just so, quenched only long enough for you to hum a very fast 'i'm a little teapot' while standing on one foot, or else your blade will be inferior.

or; it gives the impression it can be done with a bucket of used motor oil and a barbeque.

now, i've used light oil and a propane torch for tempering(i just had to hammer one out the way they show you in the book), but the heat treatment was a scary thing involving much blasting of coal and a great deal of praying.

i personally have to take bob loveless' view on using tool steels, that the metal is so precisely controlled during its making that it's likely to be superior to a forged, folded steel(delaminations are an ugly thing). the properties are also actually known, and anyone who does a little reading can make a stab or two at some heat treating, so long as they don't mind starting over from time to time.

i've gone that route, but i like the results from having someone who's a experienced pro at it do it. there's something reassuring about knowing it'll probably be done right the first time.

it's all a matter of personal preference. there's an unmeasurable value to the experience of doing it all yourself.

but i like leaving the stressful part to the pros, there's a metal shop just north of seattle that's pretty cool about tossing a knife in with a bunch of other stuff they're treating.

and yes, 1095 is a stone bastard to work with. when it turns out great, it's amazing. but what a lot of trouble it is... i'd rather work with D-2, and that's gotta be one of the toughest tool steels to work with(but man does it hold an edge).

the other reason i brought up stock removal: your neighbors won't hate you for running a grinder, but pounding and forging will annoy them even if they're a mile away.

 

[LRB]

Heat treat really does not have to be mystical, but it does require more than a fire and motor oil. If you know exactly what steel you have, you can usually get the basic HT from the manufacturor. The main problem with that is in terminology. When they say quench in oil, they are saying quench in the proper oil formulated for that particular range of steel types. When they say heat to a particular heat range, they mean a controlled heat, and an even heat. When they tell you a certain temperature will produce a given hardness after the temper process, they are assuming you did all of the above correctly with the proper equipment. Now there are ways of tweaking a HT plan to go a tad better, in certain steels, but basicly what the steel producer tells you is based on many hours, and dollars their metallurgists have put into experimenting and testing, so the odds are against you coming out with any improvement that is earth shattering. Although anything is possible, it is just unlikely. An example of tweaking would be A2. Yes, it air hardens, but it comes out a tad more hard, and better structured if cooled between thick metal plates. Usually aluminum plates. This locks in the solution a little faster, and prevents warping. HTing really isn't difficult, but one needs the right equipment, and proceedures in order to get the right results, and each steel has it's own set of rules to follow if you want the desired end result. That is why mystery steel often fails to give what was expected, or hoped for. To rehash forging vs stock removal. I agree with you. Forging does nothing to improve todays steel, and can be harmful if not done right. The key word being "right". If forged too cool, the steel can crack, micro crack, or the carbon can be burned out of it if forged too hot, with too many heats. In the end, any changes, other than cracking, to the steel structure done by forging, are nullified when the blade is HTed. Forging adds a lot of work to making a blade, but some just enjoy doing it that way, and in the end makes no difference, as long as your neighbors don't complain, as you mentioned.

 

[dsuursoo]

indeed. forging is a lot of fun, provided you have a forum in which to practice.

hm. thick aluminum plates. the new things you learn when you talk to the guys who have been doing it for a long time...

i'll admit, going with a manufactured steel like 10xx would be a better way to go about it for a beginner to forging, than making your own steel or scrounging it. though the real way to go would be cutting a piece of tool steel then grinding to shape.

since you've got to do some grinding even if you forge, it's good to get the technique down by outright making knives that way.


back to the forging point: i've also seen a lot of forgers get into a 'gotta make this better' cycle, where they're always tinkering and trying to improve their equipment, seeking the mystical perfection.

i've never felt that, being a stock removal guy.

 

...i've never felt that, being a stock removal guy.

When it comes to recreating an 18th century persona, "stock removal" doesn't cut it. There's nothing like an forged blade.

To each his own. :v