Lab Report on blown India musket

[J.D.]

Paul,
Most barrel makers do use 12L14, however, some do use 11 series plain carbon steel. A very few still use 4140 barrel steel.

 

[tg]

" BEFORE THE FACTS WERE OUT."

I wonder if any other labs were involved in examiming this gun? I would like to see several opinions on this barrel to see if they concur.

 

[TxRambler]

1. I am a reenactor. 2. I shoot a bess. 3. I am a metallurgist. I would have LOVED to perform this failure analysis with the special insights that someone in the sport (hobby?) would bring to it. This would have been fun (and concluded far earlier). Another missed opportunity in my life. I also would have anylized the residue. If possible, tests to determine if a barrel can be shot so long and hard without cleaning to cause this type of rupture.

By the way, anyone notice the S/N? I'm speculating the musket was made Sept 25, 1979. How can you hold a company liable after 29 years (if my speculation is correct).

 

[fallaloosa]

There is no way those guns would ever go 6 or 7 years without cleaning and still be allowed on a field during a reenactment, at EVERY event I have ever been to, weapons are checked by running a rammer down to the breech and listening for the ping. unless the events they go to are slipshod on safety, there is absolutely NO WAY IN THE WORLD, that they were ever allowed to participate.I think that is quite the exageration. :nono:

 

[Tman]

I caught the date as well. But I do not think MVt has been around that long? Whats the scoop there?

I find it funny that several posters STILL are doubting that is was operator error vs. the MFG?!

I know for a fact know humans are some of the dumbest animals on this orb. I work with them every day :rotf: I put the burden on the guy pulling the trigger, as it should be.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I caught the date as well. But I do not think MVT has been around that long? Whats the scoop there?

Just because MVT hasn't been around that long ... doesn't mean the firearm hasn't been around much longer ...

 

[thewho66]

I hope that the report finally puts to rest that all india made guns are junk. I personally dont own one nor have I seen one up close, but I have been tempted to get one due to the price. I probably would only buy one if I could see and hold it first due to the build quilty( fit, finnish and function) since joining the forum its been one of the most active threads to date.

John

 

[Tman]

I caught the date as well. But I do not think MVT has been around that long? Whats the scoop there?

Just because MVT hasn't been around that long ... doesn't mean the firearm hasn't been around much longer ...

You think a barrel would sit on some shelf for 20-30 years in a BEFORE it got built into a musket? I think not. Your assumption is flawed sir. I have known many Indians, they are all more than driven. There is a reason they prosper, keeping back stock for a decade or two is not a wise business choice. Granted, some builder over there could have bought out some NOS barrels from a defunct factory, but the fact is a metalurgist has done an analysis, regardless of when the thing was made.

 

[Bubba45]

Had the gun been shot previously that day? If the gun had been stored in the open in the garage it could be possible a mud dauber wasp built a mud nest in the bore .

 

[Parzifal]

I myself noticed the other weekend at our regimental school and training weekend how rottenly filthy most of the muskets were, rust to be seen, and crud everywhere.

Before I did any fun after drill stuff my musket was very well cleaned.

Then again I actually SHOOT my muskets and I know this is one of the most important things to do to be able to rely on both the safety and relyability of my lovly long land!

Clean it, and when you think you have done a good job....clean it AGAIN!

I am very happy this is finally made public, and we can all breath a sigh of relief and cast the paranoid delusions aside!!

Cheers
Rob

 

[Mike Brooks]

By the way, anyone notice the S/N? I'm speculating the musket was made Sept 25, 1979. How can you hold a company liable after 29 years (if my speculation is correct).

I've had several of the India guns apart and they all have that date stamped on the bottom of the barrel.
I'm still not convinced that something isn't screwy about this lab test. All the flint guns I've seen that have experienced a bore obstruction have had their barrels bulged at the point of the obstruction and all the gasses have escaped through the vent hole. It's damned difficult to actually blow a flint barrel up like the one in the picture, even when you're trying to do it on purpose.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

..............
By the way, anyone notice the S/N? I'm speculating the musket was made Sept 25, 1979. How can you hold a company liable after 29 years (if my speculation is correct).

No way that barrel was made in 1979, the Indians got into the "reproduction firearms" (both terms used loosely) business relatively recently. Who knows what the numbers mean? Just another mystery....

TxRambler, as a shooter, reenactor and a metallurgist, I too wish you had been able to get a look at this one, a second opinion is always a good thing. I still wish there were a report on the breaching. Mike, in your experience did you ever pull the plug on one of the Indian guns?

 

[Parzifal]

:haha:
Apon reflection, I am quite happy, for awhile Ive been defending guns that I have known were decent and dependable!!

Its nice to have documented proof to wave at the naysayers.

I THINK NO MATTER WHAT

Even in the face of proof some will make it a mission to slander these guns any way they can.

If I have said it onece Ill say it a thousand times...A little work you will have a fine shooter that wont break the bank.

I thank the owners of both Loyalist and Middlesex for making the hobby and dare I say it.
.ART..
of shooting the flintlock, available to those of us who can not in good consience spend 3000$$ on a gun.

As far as their safety goes ...Im suprised that after the past year or so ya just wouldent take the word of your pal
Bessbattlesystem!
When them writins on a piece of paper from some high fallotin type said what Ive been sayin all along!

Im just joshin...But really, this is nice to hear aint it..!

 

[Zoar]

yeah, one possible reality is: 29 years of shooting powder only out of the barrel without cleaning it throughly once. I'm surprised the stuff inside wasn't fossilized! Or was crud actually fossilized?

 

[huntman58]

To me after reading the article and every ones post my thought is this. Some thing be it not cleaning to as some one said a nest in the barrel was an obstruction. The load most likely stopped there some how the flame made it to the powder and set the whole thing off. This could also explain why the gas was not fully released at the vent as gas will flow in the direction of lest resistance.

 

[Zoar]

This idea of throwing powder down a barrel and NOT using a ramrod with cloth to move the powder to the bearch where it belongs and to swipe the bore is simply unsound practice. I understand it that they were worried that a real ramrod would get left in and someone would (did) get shot with one. To remedy that why not use a SAFE ramrod made from very soft, flexible material (that I make); these would prevent injuries yet would help to swab these barrels, which needs to be done. The practice of throwing powder down a barrel and shooting, often many shots without using patch and some sort of SAFE ramrod is just plain retarded.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

For safety reasons ramrods are not used in re enactments. So places will not let you take your ramrod on the field. Only loose powder is dumped
down the barrel. Period. We had one musket come apart at Charleston SC a couple of years ago. This was because the man ( a non shooter ) loaded
at least 7 charges in the musket before it went off. Even then the barrel went backwards but the barrel did not burst with seven or eight times the normal powder. He was in the hospital a while,
but he still uses the same Indian made musket.
:thumbsup:

 

[pichou]

All I'm gonna say here is :bull: I don't know what guns you are or have looked at (if any), but my two muskets inletting is near perfect. I give up!!

I DO know what guns I have looked at. :blah:

I think the overall quality is improving, but yes I have looked at India made guns that looked like they were inletted with a screw driver.

If you don't know what I have looked at, how can you say I am wrong? Now THAT is :bull: If you have only looked at your 2, then I know more than you do.

BTW I have seen 1 American made CUSTOM gun that was worse than any Indian made gun I have seen. If it had been shipped to me, I would have been taping the box back up before the UPS truck left the driveway.

 

[Zoar]

Yes I hear that argument--'for safety reasons ramrods are not allowed in re-enactments and they just dump and dump and dump loose powder down the barrels'. However, that practice does NOT seem safe to me. In fact it can and probably has caused guns to "blowed up" (some incidences may have not been reported even, ...oh my)... Why did they blowed up?---because of an unsafe practice that is being enforced as a safe practice. I simply cannot fathom throwing black powder down a barrel and NOT use a ramrod and patch and to do this repeatedly and NOT expect buildup of powder and the predictable buildup to create an actual obstruction which then would lead to a gun and person(s) being "blowed up".

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Oh for goodness sake Zoar. :shake: It is perfectly safe, infinitely safer than having some pea-brain shoot a ramrod, soft or otherwise, out of the barrel. I've been around firearms and shooting them for 50 years and have never heard of a real gun blowing up with blanks as long as it was cleaned and maintained regularly after and hopefully during EVERY event where blank firing was done. When the day's activities are done on Saturday, clean the gun! Clean in the parking lot before you leave on Sunday, it's simple. Now, if grains of powder stick to the bore on the way down, they are consumed during the firing. Sorry, no sale on your "soft" ramrods. :rotf: