Pichou, the point that I was trying to make is; In 30+ years of shooting blackpowder, I've never seen a custom built or production reproduction (Indian, American or Italian built) musket that looked like it was inletted with a screwdriver. I've seen some that weren't real well done. The point is that statement is a gross exaggeration and is unfair to the majority of Indian made muskets (and I've seen a lot more than just my two). The Indian-made musket quality is already a sensitive subject on this forum, without aggravating the situation with exaggerations. Yes I believe you have probably seen some that weren't inletted well. It was not my intention to anger you. So take this with a grain of salt.
-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Lab Report on blown India musket
- Thread starter mastrsgt
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
I don't mean to belittle India guns, or those who have bought them. I don't mean to belittle screwdrivers either. In fact, a true craftsman could do a better job with a sharp screwdriver than most of us could with the best Swiss chisels.
Having looked at stripped down originals, Euro- and American-made guns, and the India guns, I would not call the India woodworkers fine craftsmen. Original Birmingham and London guns, and the Springfield guns I have looked at are amazing for the quality of fit and finish.
:v
Having looked at stripped down originals, Euro- and American-made guns, and the India guns, I would not call the India woodworkers fine craftsmen. Original Birmingham and London guns, and the Springfield guns I have looked at are amazing for the quality of fit and finish.
:v
A friend of mine sold his repro Italian Enfield and bought an original. He was quite surprised at the difference in craftsmanship between the two. He was mainly surprised because the original was so much rougher than the repro. When we were looking at it together, we didn't use the screwdriver analogy, but it would have fit.
This was several years ago, and the original was not Nepalese or from anywhere else in the Middle or Far East.
This was several years ago, and the original was not Nepalese or from anywhere else in the Middle or Far East.
Antique arms being in rough shape does not mean rough workmanship. I saw a "Mississippi" that had a 1/8" gap all the way around the lock, but that does not mean it was made that way. :shake:
You do see things like file marks on the parts where they don't show.
But to accurately judge the workmanship on a original, it would have to be near mint, not issued for 40 years and then surplussed to another country's army and used for another 40.
:v
You do see things like file marks on the parts where they don't show.
But to accurately judge the workmanship on a original, it would have to be near mint, not issued for 40 years and then surplussed to another country's army and used for another 40.
:v
"I find it funny that several posters STILL are doubting that is was operator error vs. the MFG?!"
I would just like to see more than one labs opinion on this barrel and the cause of the failure. For all I know 5 tests were done and the only one released was the one favorable to the manufacture, I am not saying this happened but more than one test three or four would have been more convincing due to the very non specific verdict about grey matter and theories on the type of obstructions mentioned.
I would just like to see more than one labs opinion on this barrel and the cause of the failure. For all I know 5 tests were done and the only one released was the one favorable to the manufacture, I am not saying this happened but more than one test three or four would have been more convincing due to the very non specific verdict about grey matter and theories on the type of obstructions mentioned.
tg said:
I do think your concern and doubt is overly cautious. A lab tested it, the metal was analyzed. Why can't we be satisfied with the result? I have no dog in this fight, I just see the Salem Witch Hunt mentality on many boards online.
The best ending to this would be the shooter to come forward and be honest one way or another. At this point I doubt there is anything to gain monetarily in our litigious times by standing by his statements. If it WAS an issue of re-enactors dumping powder in and not cleaning proporly the person would be doing a service to our entire hobby and maybe the future of muzzleloading in teh United States if not the world. I ask the person to come clean.
I also find it funny that this person nor any of the folks in his unit have not chimed in here? (disclaimer, I have only followed the online forums for a couple months, forgive me if the account is online). We are in a he said-she said, MVT got there side out there, batter-up!
rebelyell
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2004
- Messages
- 48
- Reaction score
- 1
Gentlemen,
First of all, I have no dog in this fight. I shoot Italian repros (percussion not flinters) & think they are tough, serviceable weapons (as an old soldier, that’s high praise). I don’t own an Indian gun, but if the urge hits me, I may one day buy one. I know a couple of guys who do, and they seem to be getting good use from them.
I love the ”˜Net, & enjoy this forum tremendously. I don’t understand the virulence about these Indian guns. Is it because we don’t have to face the people we “flame”?
The minute that Bess blew out, there was a plethora of posts”¦ all Indian guns were pipe bombs”¦ pictures of Elmer Fudd”¦ you would think that the fields of America resembled Verdun with endless lists of crippled & maimed. (You should have seen the posts on the N-ssa board; they were practically celebrating. I was waiting for somebody to call up a posse so they could string up a couple of Indian musket vendors. Of course, they view Italian repros about the way some of y’all look at Indian guns) Over 1 musket”¦
I wouldn’t know Pete Plunkett if he bit me on the nose, but he has had his name & his business dragged through the mud. First, some kid who hacked up a MVT musket spent a month re-writing the same post full of character assassination, & his rants were accepted as gospel”¦ Then, The kid tries to sell this “unsafe piece of Indian manure”. (To everyone’s credit, he was called down on this).
Next, somebody publishes a reply Plunkett made about the issue. Hell, he was ******. I don’t blame him. You would think he was selling crack cocaine the way the muzzle loading community was reacting. But he must have been guilty, right? No innocent man would actually protest his innocence or diss some reenactor.
Then, the endless back & forth. Indian breech plugs”¦ How deep is the actual thread? What kind of mood was the guy who threaded it in? I know somebody who knows somebody who had a breech plug belch smoke & flame”¦
Finally, there is a lab report. By the way, I Googled the lab, this is from their website, “
H.P. White Laboratory, Inc. was founded in 1936 by Mr. Henry Packard White as a ballistic research and development facility. Since that time, we have become acknowledged as the leading privately owned laboratory engaged in small arms and ammunition research, development and testing. H.P. White Laboratory, Inc. produces no manufactured item and is in no manner affiliated with any other research organization, manufacturer, agency or end product user. We are, therefore, the only truly independent ballistics laboratory in the United States. This unique independence has enabled the Laboratory to maintain an objectivity difficult to duplicate elsewhere.H.P. White Laboratory, Inc. offers customers developmental engineering and evaluation services tailored to individual requirements. Regardless of the service, our entire staff is committed to QUALITY, OBJECTIVITY and INTEGRITY. The continued use of our services by the broadest range of government and commercial customers, domestic and foreign, stands as the most eloquent endorsement of that commitment.
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Spend some time on their site; it’s a well spent 10-20 minutes.
But, that is not enough, why aren’t there two tests, or five, or seventy two? What does this prove? Even if this musket was safe, that does not mean that any of the other thousands are”¦
There is nothing Pete Plunkett can do to wash his hands of this. If God Almighty himself were to come down from the heavens & proclaim that this accident was totally operator error, somebody would want to know what Buddha thinks.
I don’t know the guy, but I hate to see anyone getting kicked.
Finally, I have a lot of respect for most of the opinions on this board. But, I am done reading anything about Indian guns.
:surrender:
Have at it y’all.
First of all, I have no dog in this fight. I shoot Italian repros (percussion not flinters) & think they are tough, serviceable weapons (as an old soldier, that’s high praise). I don’t own an Indian gun, but if the urge hits me, I may one day buy one. I know a couple of guys who do, and they seem to be getting good use from them.
I love the ”˜Net, & enjoy this forum tremendously. I don’t understand the virulence about these Indian guns. Is it because we don’t have to face the people we “flame”?
The minute that Bess blew out, there was a plethora of posts”¦ all Indian guns were pipe bombs”¦ pictures of Elmer Fudd”¦ you would think that the fields of America resembled Verdun with endless lists of crippled & maimed. (You should have seen the posts on the N-ssa board; they were practically celebrating. I was waiting for somebody to call up a posse so they could string up a couple of Indian musket vendors. Of course, they view Italian repros about the way some of y’all look at Indian guns) Over 1 musket”¦
I wouldn’t know Pete Plunkett if he bit me on the nose, but he has had his name & his business dragged through the mud. First, some kid who hacked up a MVT musket spent a month re-writing the same post full of character assassination, & his rants were accepted as gospel”¦ Then, The kid tries to sell this “unsafe piece of Indian manure”. (To everyone’s credit, he was called down on this).
Next, somebody publishes a reply Plunkett made about the issue. Hell, he was ******. I don’t blame him. You would think he was selling crack cocaine the way the muzzle loading community was reacting. But he must have been guilty, right? No innocent man would actually protest his innocence or diss some reenactor.
Then, the endless back & forth. Indian breech plugs”¦ How deep is the actual thread? What kind of mood was the guy who threaded it in? I know somebody who knows somebody who had a breech plug belch smoke & flame”¦
Finally, there is a lab report. By the way, I Googled the lab, this is from their website, “
H.P. White Laboratory, Inc. was founded in 1936 by Mr. Henry Packard White as a ballistic research and development facility. Since that time, we have become acknowledged as the leading privately owned laboratory engaged in small arms and ammunition research, development and testing. H.P. White Laboratory, Inc. produces no manufactured item and is in no manner affiliated with any other research organization, manufacturer, agency or end product user. We are, therefore, the only truly independent ballistics laboratory in the United States. This unique independence has enabled the Laboratory to maintain an objectivity difficult to duplicate elsewhere.H.P. White Laboratory, Inc. offers customers developmental engineering and evaluation services tailored to individual requirements. Regardless of the service, our entire staff is committed to QUALITY, OBJECTIVITY and INTEGRITY. The continued use of our services by the broadest range of government and commercial customers, domestic and foreign, stands as the most eloquent endorsement of that commitment.
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Spend some time on their site; it’s a well spent 10-20 minutes.
But, that is not enough, why aren’t there two tests, or five, or seventy two? What does this prove? Even if this musket was safe, that does not mean that any of the other thousands are”¦
There is nothing Pete Plunkett can do to wash his hands of this. If God Almighty himself were to come down from the heavens & proclaim that this accident was totally operator error, somebody would want to know what Buddha thinks.
I don’t know the guy, but I hate to see anyone getting kicked.
Finally, I have a lot of respect for most of the opinions on this board. But, I am done reading anything about Indian guns.
:surrender:
Have at it y’all.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
DO YOU THINK THESE TESTS ARE FREE? Are you willing to pay for all those extra test? Where are you going to find an independent Ballistic's Lab to do the testing? H.P. White Labs IS the only independent ballistics lab in the US, to my knowledge. State crime labs can't and Won't do testing unless requested by a police department as part of an investigation into a criminal case.
This is the first time I have ever read or heard of anyone questioning the findings of th H.P.White lab results. I don't even know where to begin to question your concerns. Perhaps another member is correct: If God Almighty spoke from on High and told you this was an operator error incident, and not the result of material failure, or product design, or manufacturer negligence, you probably would be insisting that HIS statement be cooborated by Satan himself. :youcrazy: :shocked2: :shake:
:cursing:
Let it go. You are now only embarrassing yourself by continuing these baseless attacks on the dealer, and the manufacturer. :hmm: :shocked2: :surrender: The only thing worse than someone who shoots himself in the foot is the guy who then looks down the barrel and pulls the trigger again to figure out how that first shot happened! :youcrazy: :blah: :thumbsup:
This is the first time I have ever read or heard of anyone questioning the findings of th H.P.White lab results. I don't even know where to begin to question your concerns. Perhaps another member is correct: If God Almighty spoke from on High and told you this was an operator error incident, and not the result of material failure, or product design, or manufacturer negligence, you probably would be insisting that HIS statement be cooborated by Satan himself. :youcrazy: :shocked2: :shake:
:cursing: Let it go. You are now only embarrassing yourself by continuing these baseless attacks on the dealer, and the manufacturer. :hmm: :shocked2: :surrender: The only thing worse than someone who shoots himself in the foot is the guy who then looks down the barrel and pulls the trigger again to figure out how that first shot happened! :youcrazy: :blah: :thumbsup:
Muskeg Stomper
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,044
- Reaction score
- 4
Rebel & Paul couldn't have said it any better. Folks have dragged MVTC and all Indian-made guns through the mud. Now some even want to question the validity of the lab report. I sent Pete & Wendy at MVTC an email just to let them know that the words of the few don't fairly represent most of us, particularly those of us who own a gun purchased from them. I'm just wondering how many of the folks who have gone off half cocked without even having all the facts for these many months are big enough to post an apology!
" I'm just wondering how many of the folks who have gone off half cocked without even having all the facts for these many months are big enough to post an apology! "
I don't know what or why this gun failed I am just interested in why, I have no interest in these guns as I find them not to my likeing just from the pics and historical writeups about them on the various vendors sites,I have always felt it is worth the wait to go for a better quality and a more represntitive "copy" of original guns. I won't appolgize for not caring for what I see or think of the guns whether it is these or some of Pedorsolis stuff, for those that like them and shoot them more power to you,
I don't know what or why this gun failed I am just interested in why, I have no interest in these guns as I find them not to my likeing just from the pics and historical writeups about them on the various vendors sites,I have always felt it is worth the wait to go for a better quality and a more represntitive "copy" of original guns. I won't appolgize for not caring for what I see or think of the guns whether it is these or some of Pedorsolis stuff, for those that like them and shoot them more power to you,
Now that the results are in - Next year about this time I will probably order a brown bess from MVTCo to go with an early fur trade impression I am working on.
Can never have too many guns - it is nice to have a spare back up to work with should my primary gun break a spring or something at a shoot.
Keith
Can never have too many guns - it is nice to have a spare back up to work with should my primary gun break a spring or something at a shoot.
Keith
Mike Brooks
Cannon
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 6,686
- Reaction score
- 33
No apologies here, I will suggest instead that everyone go out and buy several of these wonderful India made guns. I mean why in the hell shouldn't we run the American gun business out of existence like we have every other business in America....
Early on it was said MVT was defensive for income related issues, doesn't your business (and your stance) ALSO hinge on how this played out? Custom vs. batch made imports? I mean no offense by this, I respect high end builders.
Also, I do not see gun builders dying out, compared to 40 years ago we are in a new Golden Age with the skill levels prob the highest EVER! :thumbsup:
I aslo mentioned a non-firearm business that I am involved in manufacturing overseas, well, we may have a line on a way to bring that BACK to the US. Could also be an option for compainies like MVT in firearms and other industries.
Also, I do not see gun builders dying out, compared to 40 years ago we are in a new Golden Age with the skill levels prob the highest EVER! :thumbsup:
I aslo mentioned a non-firearm business that I am involved in manufacturing overseas, well, we may have a line on a way to bring that BACK to the US. Could also be an option for compainies like MVT in firearms and other industries.
I'm done with really caring about the who what or why but something in the report did seem a bit odd, the metalurgist was familiar with firearms yet usually refered to the gun as a rifle, not trying to attack anyone or anything but it does seem odd that a professional who is familiar with firearms would call a Brown Bess a rifle.
Mike Brooks
Cannon
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 6,686
- Reaction score
- 33
It would also seem odd that he didn't know black powder residue turns grey as it dries out. :hmm:
"I'm still not convinced that something isn't screwy about this lab test. All the flint guns I've seen that have experienced a bore obstruction have had their barrels bulged at the point of the obstruction and all the gasses have escaped through the vent hole. It's damned difficult to actually blow a flint barrel up like the one in the picture, even when you're trying to do it on purpose.
Aren't some of us old enouh to remember the test in the old black powder books by "F" with the thin copper pipe?? blocked end for breach, powder lots of it and a ball half way down...a real bomb RIGHT?? but it didnt blow and hardly made a walnut in the pipe unless the ball was way far from powder AND powder was laying down, Again laying down. In one book he got a rip or two the only blow up was jam up both ends of barrel and smokeless works good too. No one here makes a 10" twin 20G smooth (makes a hell of a snake gun on any kind of snake,looks great outside but inside it is a mess, but to keep me happy since we got one of the first ones comeing in I put 80grs 2f and 2 .600 balls in, no big deal , I tryede shooting same, it hurts the wrist! :rotf: I never pack these things tight like I would a Hawken or one of the target underhammers,Nothing is 100% safe humans make sure of that. (crazy people like me...but as said swomething else is funny about this story... Fred :hatsoff:
Aren't some of us old enouh to remember the test in the old black powder books by "F" with the thin copper pipe?? blocked end for breach, powder lots of it and a ball half way down...a real bomb RIGHT?? but it didnt blow and hardly made a walnut in the pipe unless the ball was way far from powder AND powder was laying down, Again laying down. In one book he got a rip or two the only blow up was jam up both ends of barrel and smokeless works good too. No one here makes a 10" twin 20G smooth (makes a hell of a snake gun on any kind of snake,looks great outside but inside it is a mess, but to keep me happy since we got one of the first ones comeing in I put 80grs 2f and 2 .600 balls in, no big deal , I tryede shooting same, it hurts the wrist! :rotf: I never pack these things tight like I would a Hawken or one of the target underhammers,Nothing is 100% safe humans make sure of that. (crazy people like me...but as said swomething else is funny about this story... Fred :hatsoff:
Mike, I personally wouldn't expect any apologies from anyone. As for running American gunbuilders out of business, I don't know the answer. I have seen some of your work and it is undoubtly some of the finest I have ever seen; beautiful work. My problem is that I just, flat can't afford it on a retired Army income! I was stretching my budget when I purchased my two custom built muzzleloaders, last year and the year before. I know that you have to pay for top quality work, but some folks can't afford it or justify it for a hobby. Shooting is more than a hobby to me, it's a passion that I've had most of my 58 years on this earth. I hope that some day I will be able to own one of your fine guns. As for the safety of the Indian-built guns, the lab report has convinced me that they are safe and I will continue to shoot my two Indian-built guns. I do plan on having a friend of mine X-Ray the breech on mine to settle the threaded breechplug issue. I have a friend who owns an Industrial X-ray Company and he regularly X-Rays piping used for the Petroleum Industry.
Rawr!
Sorry I couldn't check out Enfields in the 1860's, but I wasn't quite born yet.
Anyhow, the gun wasn't trashed, but there were some areas where the workmanship wasn't quite what was expected.
Outside of Afghanistan, where have Enfields seen 80 years of use?
Sorry I couldn't check out Enfields in the 1860's, but I wasn't quite born yet.
Anyhow, the gun wasn't trashed, but there were some areas where the workmanship wasn't quite what was expected.
Outside of Afghanistan, where have Enfields seen 80 years of use?
I really appreciate being able to read the report. I believe it.
India guns are not the best guns in the world, but they are as safe as the shooter who uses them, just like any other firearm.
That's all from me on this topic.
:snore: :snore: :snore:
India guns are not the best guns in the world, but they are as safe as the shooter who uses them, just like any other firearm.
That's all from me on this topic.
:snore: :snore: :snore:
Pichou said:
I agree with you. I also believe that we need to adhere to the highest standard with safety and cleaning. I have a club shoot tomorrow, folks are pretty safe but I do see some areas where we could improve. Unlike hunting, I dont put a load in the bore until I am ready to walk up to the line and fire.
