Leather vs. Lead setting flints

[Otter]

WADR back atcha Paul,

I have used lead as a wrap for my flints for as long as I have had them. I don't intend to change just on somebody's "recommendation". I might experiment with leather as a wrap again, but have not had any bad things happen because I use lead. I feel the metallurgy of our "modern" locks are more than substantial enough to withstand the extra "shock and impact stresses" associated with the extra weight of lead over leather when used as a flint wrap. Read my post again . . . ALL of it. Yes, I do realize Jim is not a "god", nor did I intend to imply he was the final word on this subject. He is, simply, a recognized name in the world of flintlocks. I could have contacted any number other similar folks, I just happened to pick on Jim because his locks were specifically mentioned. I did not ask him to weigh in (pun intended) on the lead vs leather debate, I simply quoted his entire response to my inquiry of his (Siler) lock construction. My sole purpose in contacting him was to let a special someone who was weighing in on the subject know that Jim Chambers' locks (by his specific reference) and other locks are not made from "pot metal" but rather that they are made from cast steel, and that cast steels are not the same as cast irons or "pot metal". Any cast part can have flaws causing them to fail. Jim Chambers says his locks have very few failures in a relatively long period of time "(maybe one every four or five years)". All I can say is Mark must be one of the unluckiest men I have ever heard of in that regards.

I don't refer to Jim, nor do I refer to anyone, as an expert in any field, because here's my definition of an "expert" - "X" is an unknown factor in math; "spurt" is a drip under pressure; therefore an "expert" is an unknown drip under pressure. I don't want to be called that, nor do I claim to be one, so, out of respect, I call no one an "expert".

YMHS . . . Otter

 

[rich pierce]

such excitement over such a small matter. We've gone on to questioning the knowledge or advice of a guy (Jim Chambers) who has done the art of gunmaking as much good as anyone else in the field in the past 25 years. Maybe we could start a new religion or overthrow a government or something over lead versus leather wraps of a flint! :haha:

Some wrap their flints in leather
Some wrap their flints in lead
They go in the dark and watch for sparks
Long after I'm to bed!

 

[robinghewitt]

Jim Chambers is not God. He doesn't know everything about flintlocks.

God isn't telling so maybe we have to settle for second best. If not JC, who do you recommend to settle this? :rotf:

 

[Old Ironsights]

Jim Chambers is not God. He doesn't know everything about flintlocks.

God isn't telling so maybe we have to settle for second best. If not JC, who do you recommend to settle this? :rotf:

Is it somthing that needs settling?

Use what works best in your lock. If somebody else's lock is faster without endangering flint, cock or Frizzen, find out why and try to emulate it. Leather flexes, Lead doesn't. A flint that flexes away fromthe frizzen can't cut as much steel - by definition.

Mass is Mass. If lead = Xgr and leather also = Xgr, then the "difference" (0gr) can't hurt the lock.

 

[roundball]

Jim Chambers is not God. He doesn't know everything about flintlocks.

God isn't telling so maybe we have to settle for second best. If not JC, who do you recommend to settle this? :rotf:

And actually there's nothing to settle...it all gets down to comments that are made as absolute across the board blanket statements instead of simply voicing an opinion...one time...then letting it go.

The pattern has been clear for months...an absolute declaration is made, controversry follows, the threads disintegrate.

:shake:

 

[Old Ironsights]

And actually there's nothing to settle...it all gets down to comments that are made as absolute across the board blanket statements instead of simply voicing an opinion...one time...then letting it go.

The pattern has been clear for months...an absolute declaration is made, controversry follows, the threads disintegrate.

:shake:

:hatsoff:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Cast frizzens and springs break all the time. Cast (pot metal) isn't as strong as forged wrought iron.

A question for the Blacksmiths on the Forum...

It's my understanding that true "wrought iron" is almost impossible to find these days. What we see today is really "mild steel".

In any case, I believe wrought iron is very soft, is it not?

 

[Stumpkiller]

Jim uses Siler locks. They have certain problems that arise out of using cast steel parts, but the problems are not related to strength! L&R locks also have problems, relating to casting, but none are related to strength.

Look a little closer. Jim Chambers owns Siler Locks. He got so good at tuning and customizing them and his busness grew so that he eventually bought them out. He's not God, but he's one of the best locksmiths in the world.

 

[J.D.]

Yes, wrought iron is VERY difficult to come by these days. Since wrought iron contains virtually no carbon, it is veeeerryy soft, nearly as soft as copper.

Lock parts made from wrought iron required "baking" in a carbon rich environment to case harden them to prevent rapid wear on moving parts. Wrought iron parts were so soft, that even screws were case hardened to prevent buggered heads during maintenance. I suspect that the threads benefitted from case hardening too.

J.D.

 

[captgary]

Where is that DEAD HORSE icon when you need it............... :yakyak:

 

[Old Ironsights]

Where is that DEAD HORSE icon when you need it............... :yakyak:

 

[paulvallandigham]

What is the matter with your own eyes? And Brain? Can't you think for yourself? I have given you the simple testing procedure to answer this question, as it was done for me. I can listen to a flintlock going off and tell you from the total sounds whether the flint is wrapped in leather or lead. That is how " insignificant " a thing this is. But I am not telling anyone to do something on my say so. Lord knows I am not God, either. What I am willing to do is explain how I reached my conclusions and offer you in clear language the testing procedures so you can replicate the test, and decide for yourself, based on what YOU see. If you have access to the camera, take high speed film so you can slow it down and see the bounce that occurs when you use leather, rather than lead. If you don't have that equipment, use a magnifying lens and good natural light to check the edge of the flint after every shot. You should see steel bits clogging the edge with each shot fire with the leather wraps, but not with the lead.

 

[Old Ironsights]

What is the matter with your own eyes? And Brain? Can't you think for yourself? I have given you the simple testing procedure to answer this question, as it was done for me. I can listen to a flintlock going off and tell you from the total sounds whether the flint is wrapped in leather or lead. That is how " insignificant " a thing this is. But I am not telling anyone to do something on my say so. Lord knows I am not God, either. What I am willing to do is explain how I reached my conclusions and offer you in clear language the testing procedures so you can replicate the test, and decide for yourself, based on what YOU see. If you have access to the camera, take high speed film so you can slow it down and see the bounce that occurs when you use leather, rather than lead. If you don't have that equipment, use a magnifying lens and good natural light to check the edge of the flint after every shot. You should see steel bits clogging the edge with each shot fire with the leather wraps, but not with the lead.

Paul, Squire Robin posted just such a high speed test here, back on page 2 or 3 of the thread:[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/266528/[/url]
and he aknowledged that lead made longer-hotter sparks.

I don't think he is pulling a Mark and rejecting the observable benefits of a lead wrap. I believe at this dead-horse stage the only question is the whys and wherefores of Chamber's position, which, while curious, in the end, unless it voids some warantee of his on a Siler Lock, is largely irrelevant.

 

[roundball]

What is the matter with your own eyes? And Brain? Can't you think for yourself?

Ironsights, why are these incredibly childish, immature, caustic statements being made at you?

 

[Old Ironsights]

Ironsights, why are these incredibly childish, immature, caustic statements being made at you?

They weren't. They were being made to Squire Robin.

One of the problems with any Forum is Attribution. If one is not careful, percieved insult can follow from misreading the chain of commentary.

As readers/responders, it is incumbent that we insure we know to what, to whom and about what we are responding.

I think Paul may very well have missed Squire's posted video and comments, so his perceptions of Squire's position may be misalligned with the facts, or at any rate, are misalligned with the facts as I percieve them in this debate.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Calm down, calm down.

It's a good topic for discussion. I used leads in my Bess, but my current hammer screw is smaller and I can't deform the lead well enough to keep it from wobbling in my rifle lock (and even that is larger than a large Siler). IMHO the jaw screws with a hole through them work much better for leads.

The spring is a given force, so physics tells us the heavier lead will start off slower due to inertia, but hit harder.

Those "bits of steel clogging the edge" are what make the sparks. Bits of hot steel shaved off the frizzen. If you're hitting hard enough to dig a trench or shatter the edge off the flint so that they are not evident you may be sparking less.

Mainly, I use the leathers because they are easy to make and effective.

 

[Old Ironsights]

The spring is a given force, so physics tells us the heavier lead will start off slower due to inertia, but hit harder.

A couple of posters have shown that, mass wise, a properly made Lead masses the same, or nearly so as an equivelent leather.

Those "bits of steel clogging the edge" are what make the sparks. Bits of hot steel shaved off the frizzen. If you're hitting hard enough to dig a trench or shatter the edge off the flint so that they are not evident you may be sparking less.

What I've seen from using both is, I have to wipe the flint more with Leather because that embedded steel "softens" the striking edge. The flint also actually dulls a bit faster (for me) with leather.

It appears that, with lead and a properly tuned lock, the flint "self knapps". Even with an unknappable Agate, I have gotten more strikes out of an edge with lead than leather.

However, also because I am using highly polished/cut Agates, I have a harder time getting a lead wrap to "take", so I have had back-seating and pivoting issues. I'm working on a way to remedy that.

Mainly, I use the leathers because they are easy to make and effective.

I don't have as ready access to leather as I do smashed lead balls - but then, I don't do the buckskin thing, so my whole raison'detre is different.

IMO use what is known to work until you know (through observation or experiment) that somthing else works better. Either is PC, so really who's to judge?

 

[Joe Yanta]

Claude it is my understanding that virgin wrought iron is rare these days. Iron and steels are recycled over and over. All of the metals are great for recycling and aluminum ranks first. Various grades of scrap/recycled steels and iron are placed in a huge electronic crubicle. The steel is melted by the use of large electodes extending into the steel where it soon becomes molten. At some time the metalurgist draws a sample where I believe it composition is determined by a spectrometer of some sort. After the analysis, various elements are added to the crubicle to bring that pour into specifications of what ever type of steel is desired. Much of the older wrought was collected during the steel drives of WWII. Many of America's fine anvils were collected during those days and transformed into the war effort. I have seen small amounts of old wrought pop up on ebay from time to time, but it is rare.

I think that todays alloys are probably some of the finest ever produced and easily obtained if you care to look for it.

High precision parts that require minimal machine finishing are produced by investment casting. Nearly all modern firearms has some, if not most, parts made from investment casting.

I bet I stuck my neck out all the way across the block on this reply.

Joe

 

To Heckydarn with all of all yall, I use lead in my larger locks, leather in the smaller ones, and I'ma gonn use gen-u-wine nauga in my inline flintlock when I get one. In over thirty years, I have not had a problem with either lead or leather. Did break a couple of frizzen springs, one after only a couple of shots, and the second one after three to four thousand rounds, and both were forged, not cast. Only broke frizzen was a forged one from Williamsburg, never broke a cast one. Some of you need to shoot off yer Muzzleloaders more and yer mouths less, and get back to serious discussion, instead of flaming about silly male bovine manure. Bill

 

[robinghewitt]

They weren't. They were being made to Squire Robin.

But I don't even have an opinion :shocked2:

Can't say it bothers me either way. I wrap my flints in sheet rubber because I have a lot of rubber left over from a discontinued product.

What other people wrap with is of little concern to me :rotf: