Leather vs. Lead setting flints

[Otter]

You guys know best. Carry on!

No, you just haven't given us any reason to believe that your opinion has any factual basis.

I'm perfectly willing to listen to anyone who actually explains the reasoning behind their opinoins. I may not accept the opinion without personal testing, but I am more likely to test it.

Your Appeal to Authority in claiming to have workes in "the aerospace industry" is as meaningless as my claiming to have worked in "Law Enforcement" because I was a rent-a-cop for a while. What do you do in the "Aerospace Industry"? In regards to this discussion, anything other than having a degree in Metalurgical Engineering is immaterial.

There is a saying in the wider world of Internet Forums. "Provide Content or STFU." So far you haven't provide content. I really wish you would.

I have e-mailed Jim Chambers and asked him what "type" of metals his locks are made of. Hopefully he will respond sometime soon and I'll wager they aren't made of "pot metal" as Mark contends.

Ya can't cheat the mountain, pilgrim, the mountain got its way . . . Otter

 

[rabjr]

Assembled Locks

Jim Chambers Flintlocks, Ltd. is proud to offer precision assembled locks for the discriminating gunbuilder or shooter who desires a lock which is a cut above other available locks. Each lock is carefully assembled from the finest carbon steels available and is heat-treated for long, reliable service. All bearing surfaces are polished. Tumbler axles are lathe-turned to exacting dimensions. All bearing holes are drilled undersize and then reamed for extra smoothness. All locks include a fly in the tumbler for use with set triggers. We offer a money-back guarantee if not 100% satisfied.

 

[Swampman]

They are cast steel. Cast steel (pot metal)is used because it's the cheapest way to produce acceptable results. I gave you all the reasons this is so.

Why do race cars use "forged steel" connecting rods rather than cast steel like production cars? Why do they use forged pistons?

Wrought iron is very ductile. That's why it is better for barrels and locks. Personally I can't afford a $25,000 rifle, so I stick with pot metal parts.

I don't abuse them, by adding unnecessary mass in the worst possible place.

 

[buckknife]

There is truth in what Mark says.The carbon content for wrought iron is .03%
Steel carbon content runs anywares from .05 to 1.5%.
That may not be enough difference to cause a cock to break and the hand forged iron would have had to be beaten and reheated many times to get it down to the .03% but that is how it was done in the old days before a converter was invented to super heat the iron with oxygen to burn off carbon and inpurities.
Pig iron which runs around 4 to 5% carbon is what you have after it comes out of blast furnace when it is made from iron ore and other raw materials.
Gray iron which we use at work is recycled iron from scrape iron.It runs from 2.75 to 4 % carbon.
As for pot metal that would be pig iron and gray iron,dont think any steel can be refered to as pot metal.
When talking strength of iron its breaking point is someware around 12,000 lbs psi.Steel will run up to 29,000 to 30,000 psi.Some steel would rate much higher .
Will a thin strip of lead cause a steel cock to break?I doubt it.

 

[robinghewitt]

They puddled iron in a bloomery. Puddled iron is practically pure iron with a slag inclusion. They then worked the iron to stretch the slag long and thin so it wasn't localised to form a weak point. Once worked it was called wrought iron and you can see the layers of slag when it rusts.

Getting carbon out wasn't their problem, putting it back in was the trick :thumbsup:

 

[C_Laubach]

My guns have pot metal locks by Chambers and L&R. That why I would never use lead.

"Wrought Iron is tougher than (cast) Steel"

Also known as pot metal.

Rugers (which I collect) have to be built a lot heavier than finely made forged fire arms because cast steel isn't as strong as forged steel. I've worked in the Aerospace industry for 30 years. Pot metal locks are not as strong as handforged locks. They are acceptable if care is taken.

Mark,
It is a fact that steel is stronger than wrought iron. Anyone who has ever forged a lock out of WI knows that when you forge a cock you must forge
it in the shape of an "s" to make the grain of the wrought Iron flow with the part........so it doesn't brake around the neck of the cock.

I would suggest doing some research before making such statements.

One other thing just because a part is made of cast steel doesn't mean it is made of "pot metal". Just the facts, Mark....just the facts!

Chris Laubach

 

[J.D.]

The very definiton of iron precludes any appreciable carbon content. Steel, by definition is iron alloyed with carbon, in its most simple forms. So steel can have as little as, say .005% of carbon.

Mild steels in modern manufacture contain .010% to about .040% carbon. That is 1/10 of 1% to 4/10 of 1% of carbon. Medium carbon steels, suitable for springs and or other applications requiring a tough flexible material usually begin at about .050% and go up to 1% carbon. 1050, 1084, and 1095 steels come to mind here.

The line to high carbon steels is blurred at about 1084-1090, or so, so 1095 is sometimes refered to as a medium carbon steel, but not all that often.

Wrought iron literally means hammered iron. The hammering process broke down and removed most of the slag left over from smelting. Robin is exactly right about slag being visible in poor quality wrought iron. Better quality wrought had less slag, and the better the quality, the less slag...and little to no carbon.
J.D.

 

[Swampman]

You guys are completely missing the point. Cast metal is ca ca. Cast steel is very brittle and likely to break if stressed. Carbon content means nothing in this context.

 

How much stress does it take Mark? That is the logical question. I have taken hammers and twisted them cold to make them fit a nipple and hit them with a ball peen to change the angle of them as well and shot the heck out of them for years without any breaking. I doubt that a lil' ol' peice of lead would put any more stress on a cock than that. This stuff is tougher than "pot metal". It makes no dif whether your preference is leather or lead. Neither one is going to cause a lock to break unless there is a fault in the part anyway. With that circumstance, any part will break eventually regardless of whether you abuse your rifle like the rest of us or not. :rotf:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Pot Metal melts at 900 degrees F. It is available from old tool casings and lawn mower engines

. Found this info on the internet. Now I finally know why Jim Chambers is always buying up all the old lawn mower engines at the flea market at Friendship. :rotf:

 

[bobnh]

Well, i've read all the posts.... so I tried the lead for the first time in three of my guns that didn't spark that well.....results.... all three showed improvement enough to warrant me changing over to the dreaded LEAD!

 

[Otter]

You guys are completely missing the point. Cast metal is ca ca. Cast steel is very brittle and likely to break if stressed. Carbon content means nothing in this context.

No, Mark, your definitions are ca ca. According to the "Machinery's Handbook" 20th edition (copyright 1977): "Steel castings are especially adapted for machine parts that must withstand shocks or heavy loads. They are stronger than either wrought iron, cast iron, or malleable iron and are very tough." It goes on to say, "Steel castings are used for such parts as hydroelectric turbine wheels, forging presses, gears, railroad car frames, valve bodies, pump casings, bridge components, mining machinery, marine equipment, engine casings, etc." Also: "White cast iron is very hard and also brittle; it's ductility is practically zero." "Gray cast iron may easily be cast into anyany desirable form and it may also be machined readily." This still doesn't account for your claim that Chambers (and other) lock parts are made of "pot metal", that's your incorrect use of a term that means something completely different in the world of metallurgy or structural integrity. "Pot metal" is a low grade alloy (of varying metalurgical compositions) used in cheap jewelry and various car parts (at least on old cars, i.e. 1955 through at least 1958 GM car tail light bezels) of non structural or non load bearing/transfering nature. At the very least, use the terminologies appropriate to the parts you are saying will be destroyed post haste by using lead instead of leather to hold a flint.

As my father-in-law used to say, "The only thing accomplished by trying to teach a pig to sing is you upset the pig". I'm weary of teaching the pig to sing . . . Otter

 

[idahjo]

"Rugers (which I collect)"

:hmm: ...I would question anyone who admits to collecting them... (I have a couple myself, but I keep it under my breath) :haha: :haha: :haha:

By the Way; "POT METAL is an alloy of various metals, primarily copper and lead. It is frequently employed in casting, due to its low melting point. There were many formulas; the term is generic.

Although cookpots in the nineteenth century were made of a cast iron that is not a modern structural material, the term does not refer to this cheap metal but to the fact that the metal could melt in a pot and be easily cast.

It was used for all sorts of fitments in cheap machinery, including cars. Radiator caps, door handles, carburetor bowls and handles which incorporated fastening threads were made of this metal, for example. These would be stronger than still cheaper alternatives, but would not be as strong as a part machined from steel or bronze and are subject to breakage and pitting. Auto restorers can find them hard to replace. In the 1950s, the fancy moulded taillight housings, for example, were switched to be made of zinc and then chrome-plated".

 

[Stumpkiller]

My guns have pot metal locks by Chambers and L&R. That why I would never use lead.

"Wrought Iron is tougher than (cast) Steel"

Also known as pot metal.

Rugers (which I collect) have to be built a lot heavier than finely made forged fire arms because cast steel isn't as strong as forged steel. I've worked in the Aerospace industry for 30 years. Pot metal locks are not as strong as handforged locks. They are acceptable if care is taken.

I still think, Mark, that you need to find out what "pot metal" really is. It is not what you are generically referring to. Do some research and report back. I find no reference to "pot metal" in any of the metallurgical and machinery reference material I have on hand. Lots of different cast irons and cast steels, but not "pot metal" as you refer to it. Am I an expert in metallurgy? No, but I am a pretty good BS'er, and one thing you can't do is sh%t a sh%tter. Not to be disrespectful, but in this case, I don't feel your knowledge of the subject matter is extensive enough to be making blanket statements as you have been.

"Pot Metal" is a low melting temperature zinc alloy used frequently in applications where an object will be plated. It's lighter (and cheaper to produce) than cast iron. Very commonly used in lamp bases and light fixtures. "Pot Metal"

And, unfortunaltely, in some early auto engines like the Hudson.

It would last about two strikes from a hammer and would be non-sparking as a frizzen. It can't be hardened.

 

[Stophel]

While I would, at first, agree that a forged part (assuming similar materials) would be stronger than a cast part, just how strong does it have to be? Would it make any difference? Cast parts are plenty strong enough IF the casting is good. Pits and voids are sometimes a problem in cast parts, particularly in thin areas, like the neck of the cock and the area on the mainspring where the "hook" bends off of the lower leaf. If these parts are going to break, and they do on occasion, they are likely to break because of a casting pit here. AND, they would break whether or not you were using lead or leather for your flints!!!

HOWEVER, if the part is cast well, you will never have a problem out of it, and for the most part, flint locks now are pretty well cast.

By the way, it is pretty much universal to use 8620 (a mild steel) to cast lockplates, cocks, pans and bridles. Siler tumblers and sears are of O1 steel (which I hate intensely, but deal with). Parts from The Rifle Shoppe are made of 4140, which seems to me to be the IDEAL material to make lock parts from, but no one else uses it, which is surprising. I have only done one or two Rifle Shoppe locks, but I have to say that 4140 works well, is amazingly tough and wear resistant, and much less finicky than O1 when it comes to heat treating...at least in my limited experience with it.

I have NEVER used lead for my flints, but only because I had never really thought of it before, and when I did, I wondered how it could possibly hold a flint tight enough. I'm gonna try it now.... :winking:

By the way, forgings are not exactly perfect either!!!! There were plenty of imperfections, flaws and inclusions in forged parts!

I used to have a '55 Dodge and the taillight bezels, side mirrors, and other parts of the trim were made of that horrible POT METAL, which is a ZINC alloy.

 

For what it's worth I am still somewhat new to flinters but have four of them, all with different manufacturers locks. One, T.C., one Pedersoli, one L&R and one Chambers. I have never used lead and so cannot speak to its effectiveness. I have always and only used leather of sufficient thickness to compress well and hold the flint. The Pedersoli does need retightening after a few shots but then holds well. The other three are pretty much good from the get go. The L&R and T.C both need some degree of knapping depending on the flint and its structure and shape and the Chambers much, much less. I suspect this is due to the quality of his locks.I have literaly gotten over a hundred shots out of flints on the Chambers lock. No where near that with the T.C. or L&R. I doubt that I could do much better with lead than that. I know this thread isn't about lock comparison and that's not what I intend here. Only that I've read on this thread about flints falling out of the jaws using leather and always having to knap and that just isn't my experience with any of these locks.
I might be inclined to try it on the Pedersoli as its such a big lock (Charleville) and gives the poorest performance. With regards, squint

 

[buckknife]

Slag floats on melted iron.The iron was beat to remove carbon content from what i understand.Reheated red or orange and beat more driving the carbon out.When it was done the wrought iron was basiclly steel.With the intro duction of the converter to super heat the iron to burn off carbon and more inpuritys with oxygen the need for the old way of making steel was not real productive.Thus cast steel was invented.Other wise if it was done the old way and just poured into a mold to make a casting and wasnt beat the dickens out of you still have iron.

 

[jim gray]

Carbon is added to iron to make steel, not removed. The reason it was so difficult to make steel prior to the industrial age is the temperatures to which iron must be heated or the degree to which it must be worked to trap the carbon in the structure.

Pure iron cannot be hardened.

 

[musketman]

I have e-mailed Jim Chambers and asked him what "type" of metals his locks are made of. Hopefully he will respond sometime soon and I'll wager they aren't made of "pot metal" as Mark contends.

Jim Chambers has a reputation as one of the world's finest gun builders, does anyone really think he is going to risk loosing that by endorsing and using pot metal products in his wares?

Back to the original topic, has anyone weighed up flint leather and flint lead wraps and see just what the difference is between the two of them?

I am willing to bet Stumpkiller's new gun that they are not that far apart in weight, the lead ball is hammered flat enough to make it pliable and trimmed to shape, whereas the leather must be thick enough to compress and grip...

Anyone care to provide us with an actual weight?

 

[buckknife]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linz-Donawitz_process