Leather vs. Lead setting flints

[DrTimboone]

FWIW, a few months ago I sent an email to Pedersoli since they say in their literature which accompanies their rifles to use lead to hold the flint. The following is my question and then their response.

"You recommend putting two pieces of lead on top and bottom of the flint before tightening it in the cock. Traditional practice in the US is to use leather rather than lead. Why do you recommend lead? Do you have any scientific proof that it works better and does not damage the cock over time?? Please share your wisdom."

Here is their response.

Dear Mr. Boone,

We apologise to you for being so late answering to your below email.
Leather is also proper to to keep the flint fix in to the top jaw.

Best regards,
Customer Service

Davide Pedersoli & C.
Via Artigiani 57
I-25063 Gardone Valtrompia (Brescia) Italy
ph.030 8915000 fax 030 8911019[url] www.davide-pedersoli.com[/url]

I am gonna try Paul's test tomorrow......leaning toward lead again. :bow:

 

[scott k]

Pig iron is not iron as we know it. I believe it is just a step in the making of steel. Look up pig iron in that wickpedia.
Lehigh...

 

[Uncle Jed]

Flint leather vr. lead, well if'n that don't beat all. One positive thing bout lead wraps is that when they are changed you can remelt them into more roundballs, can't rightly say you can do that with leather.

 

[buckknife]

Pig iron comes from the proccess of melting iron ore with other things in a blast furnace.We use a blast furnace where i work,its stoked with coke and other stuff and scrap iron is used.The iron that comes out of the blast furnace is a lower carbon iron called gray.Now it would not be cost productive to have iron ore shipped to Iowa and melted in the blast furnace and more steps would have to be taken to remove more carbon.
The big steel foundrys could not begin to get enough scrap iron to keep their blast furnaces stoked up so they use large quanitys of raw iron ore.Pig iron comes out of their blast furnace and there would be no need to try and make pig iron into a lower carbon iron when you are going to use oxygen to burn off the carbon anyway.It would just make the prosess more costly and slow down production of steel.
As for this thread i use lead around my chert rock because it increased the hotness of the spark on my gun considerbaly.This time of year i aint shooten none anyways.
Its morel mushroom season here and the hunt is on :v

 

[robinghewitt]

Slag floats on melted iron.The iron was beat to remove carbon content

When you puddle iron the melting point rises as it changes from cast to pure iron and it goes to a pasty mass, no chance for the slag to float.

Puddled iron is typically 97% pure iron with a 3% slag inclusion, the carbon content is typically only .02%

You could bake carbon in to it, the cementation process, for making springs. You could then remelt it to even out the dissolved carbon and float off the slag making crucible steel, which was top quality but v. expensive :thumbsup:

 

[Swampman]

"Forging results in metal that is stronger than cast or machined metal parts. This is because during forging the metal's grain flow changes, making it stronger and more ductile."

Wikipedia

Pedersoli makes some very fragile cast metal locks. Be esp. careful with them. I've seen their Bess cocks snap in half, and I've had 2 of their main springs snap.

 

Mild steels in modern manufacture contain .010% to about .040% carbon. That is 1/10 of 1% to 4/10 of 1% of carbon.

Just a little math correction here... forgive me please, but .010% is actually 1/100 of 1% and .040% is 4/100 or 1/25 of 1%.

:hatsoff:

 

[Otter]

MM,

Got out my reloading scale and weight a leather wrap and a lead wrap. The leather wrap is approx 3/32" thick and 5/8"W x 1 1/8"L, it weighed about 8 grains (.00114 pound). The lead wrap is approx 1/16" thick and approx the same other dimensions, it weighed 103 grains (.01471 pound). The lead wrap is pounded out from a .530 ball and cut to shape. 1 ounce is 437.5 grains.

 

[musketman]

MM,

Got out my reloading scale and weight a leather wrap and a lead wrap. The leather wrap is approx 3/32" thick and 5/8"W x 1 1/8"L, it weighed about 8 grains (.00114 pound). The lead wrap is approx 1/16" thick and approx the same other dimensions, it weighed 103 grains (.01471 pound). The lead wrap is pounded out from a .530 ball and cut to shape. 1 ounce is 437.5 grains.

Thanks Otter, good thing I was betting Stumpkiller's gun... :winking: (have fun collectiong it) :grin:

ahem, now we know thanks to you... :hatsoff:

 

[Joe Yanta]

I tried the lead wrap this morning. I noticed that the top jaw of my cock is parallel with the bottom jaw. So when I mounted the flint in the flattened lead I placed it on my anvil and premounted it by hammering the lead around the flint and making the top and bottom as flat and parallel as I could. The flint was very ridid in the lead wrap. I then wittled a notch in the back of the mounting to allow clearance for the cock screw. I then set the mounting in my jaws and tightened it down.

The first sparking was about normal without much change. I snapped it a couple of more time and the sparks improved. I then gave the jaw screw another torquing. The sparks were very much improved. After five snapping I must admit the sparks were more numerous, hotter and larger than before.

I examined the frizzen and I noticed that my flint was striking just a tad bit higher on the frizzen.

I think I will use lead for now. I suggest to who ever is interested is to give it a try and use what is best for you.

Thanks for all your comments.

Joe

 

[TN.Frank]

I've always used leather but that's just it's because it's what I had sittin' round to use. I can see where lead would be a tad bit safer since it'll not hold a spark like leather could but I've never had a leather wrap hold a spark so I guess that's kind of a moot point. Once you get the lead wrap cranked down it'll stay put no matter what where as leather may change with the weather(wet or dry, cold or hot)so that might favor lead but then you also have the added weight to think about. Guess like someone else said, you should use whatever your gun favors reguardless of peoples opinions. :thumbsup:

 

[Old Ironsights]

There's not much you do like, is there Mark?

I don't know too many shooters who have ever broken a lock once - regardless of Commercial or Custom manufacture - much less twice.

Sounds more like Operator Headspace and Timing than metal failure to me.

Every time you type you give me less reason to pay attention to you.

And, BTW, I use Leather until I can figure out how to keep polished cut agates from slipping with lead.

 

[J.D.]

Wrap the lead all the way around the edges. That will hold them solidly.

 

[Old Ironsights]

Wrap the lead all the way around the edges. That will hold them solidly.

Yeah, after looking at that pic of the Period Actual lead-wrapped flint, that was my next thing to try.

 

[roundball]

:grin:
This thread reminds me of the saying: "looks like a solution in search of a problem"

Actually I'm really lucky that everything apparently comes together as well as it does with my selection of things...my locks give me perfect ignition just using flint leathers & black english flints.

I worry about working the wind when deer hunting, and I worry about keeping still when turkey hunting, but I never worry about my Flintlock's ignition....after shooting them nearly 6000 shots during the past 4+ years, I know my locks with black english flints & Goex are going to fire 'right now' every time..."so, if it ain't broke, I ain't gonna fix it"
:thumbsup:

 

[Otter]

Received this reply from Jim Chambers:

"First, we recommend a leather wrap for the flint in all of our locks. Lead transfers too much of the shock from the flint striking the frizzen back to the cock putting undue stress on the cock. Our cocks almost never break (maybe one every four or five years) but why take the chance. In the 18th century leather was the preferred choice. You do see some lead being used on some of the large military musket locks, but those cocks were much heavier than the cocks on civilian guns.
Concerning the metal used in modern locks, every modern lock is now investment cast out of various alloys of steel regardless of whether it is a Siler, L&R, Davis or others. It is the only economical way to make locks today. There are a few guys out there who can make locks the way they were made in the 18th century by forging every part. But, few guys would be willing to pay the toll for one of these locks. If one charged even a modest living wage for hand making a lock the price would be several thousand dollars. Think locks are expensive now, call Mike Ehinger (who makes some really great hand made locks) and order a hand made lock from him. The last one I got from him about 10 years ago was $4,000. Are hand forged locks better than investment cast locks? Maybe yes, maybe no. Frizzens, for example, are cast of 1095 steel and hardened through and through. They will keep sparking until you wear through the front side. Hand forged frizzens are usually made of wrought iron and must be case hardened to make sparks. That case hardened surface is only a few thousandths thick, and when it is worn through the frizzen must be rehardened. Cocks that are properly hand forged with the grain of the metal following the bend of the cock are, technically, stronger than a cast cock. But, refer to the above mention of how many cocks we replace due to breakage. I have seen just as many old hand forged cocks that were broken as I have seen cast ones that broke. As long as one does not exceed the design limits of a cast part they should be just as durable as any forged one, and a heck of a lot cheaper. Forged springs do seem to have a different feel than cast springs. The action seems to be "livelier" or more "whippy". But, are they more durable, no. Do they cost considerably more to produce, yes."

His response supports Mark's penchant for leather rather than lead for a flint wrap (just the opposite of the Pedersoli response in an earlier post) and somewhat for the same reasoning, but not because the locks are made of "pot metal". BTW the 95 grain weight difference between the lead and leather wraps I weighed earlier today is less than 1/4 ounce (.217 oz). That's one very small split shot.

So, maybe we can all wrap this whole issue up and put it to bed . . . Either follow Jim Chambers' advise and use leather to wrap your flint or follow Pedersoli's advise and use lead as your wrap of choice. It is my theory that the metals in all my locks are up to the challenge of the extra energy developed by all that extra weight. But, then again, I might use leather.

Ya can't cheat the mountain, pilgrim, the mountain got its way . . . Otter

 

[Stumpkiller]

MM,

Got out my reloading scale and weight a leather wrap and a lead wrap. The leather wrap is approx 3/32" thick and 5/8"W x 1 1/8"L, it weighed about 8 grains (.00114 pound). The lead wrap is approx 1/16" thick and approx the same other dimensions, it weighed 103 grains (.01471 pound). The lead wrap is pounded out from a .530 ball and cut to shape. 1 ounce is 437.5 grains.

Thanks Otter, good thing I was betting Stumpkiller's gun... :winking: (have fun collectiong it) :grin:

ahem, now we know thanks to you... :hatsoff:

* sigh * What's his address?

 

[Twisted_1in66]

I have always used leather, but should the flint be touching the smooth side or the rough side of the leather strip??? :hmm:

Don't anyone bump Musketman or he might bite off a big chunk of his tongue that is so firmly ensconced in his cheek...

-----------------------------------------
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

WADR, Otter, Jim Chambers is not God. He doesn't know everything about flintlocks. Please note that no where in his letter does he state that using lead is the cause of the few cocks he reports breaking every so often. Nor does he state that using leather to wrap a flint is " Better" than using lead.

In fact, he gave no reason for stating his recommendation to use leather to wrap his flints, instead of lead. For all we know, Jim's preference is based on what he was told to do many years ago, and not based on any testing.

Jim uses Siler locks. They have certain problems that arise out of using cast steel parts, but the problems are not related to strength! L&R locks also have problems, relating to casting, but none are related to strength.

If you find a cock that breaks at the neck, I am most assured it will be due to improper heat treatment, a casting flaw, or abuse by the owner, or maker of the lock. It is not going to be the result of using lead to wrap your flint.

The purpose of using lead towrap the flint is to improve the production of sparks, and maintainance of of the edge. If the angles of the flint to the face of the Frizzen are the correct 60 degrees, the flint will scrape, rather than gouge steel out of the face, thus maintaining the condition of the frizzen, too. The face will not be work hardened by the action of the hard flint pounding the face, and there will be no washboard series of gouges in the face that will destroy flints and require the frizzen be reground, and re-tempered.

If lead did not improve all these things, I would not recommend using lead over leather to wrap your flint. To maximize the benfits of using lead to wrap your flint, I also recommend that the springs be checked for excess tension, and where it exists, the spring tension should be reduced.

Paul

 

[buckknife]

I took the flint out of my gun and weighed the lead wrap 34gr.They dont have to be real thick.The thinner they are the sooner they will need replaced.If you flanted one out to the thickness of 4 or 5 sheets of typing paper and cut it to the exact size of the jaws you could maybe get the weight down to 25 gr or less.It would still hold a flint good but would need replaced after each flint or 2 most likely.