Lewis and Clark's rifle

[Leithan]

I have been lurking around for awile, man this is a great sight, never having to have had to ask a questian up to this point is a testiment to all the great info on here. Well anyways here goes, After spending houres invetigating what rifle Lewis and Clark carried on their epedition I'm more confused then when I started researching this. So far what I have come up with is that the rifles were moddified 1792 contract rifles not 1803s. after that all bets are off, after all the reading I have done I have preaty much formed my own opion, Ok here goes, i think that after all the tinkering that Harpers ferry performed the finnished product more resembled the 1803 then the 1792, A few good arguments for this was the long time asumption that they carried 1803s with them, by my way of thinking stemming from the fact that the modified rifles resembled them, secoundly if the armory simply tweeked the locks the rifles wouldent have been referred to as "experimental" I think a few more drastic changes would have been made or I think they would have been referd to as contract rifles and no confusuion as to the type of rifle they had would have exsisted. Any way since no Hard evedince exsists as to what they realy looked like Who's to say I am wrong as to how they looked.I apoligise for the horrid spelling. Any ideas or thoughts would be a great help, on the rifle that is, there is no help for my grammer.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The general opinion of historians seems to be that the rifles were hand picked from the 1792 contract guns and fitted with new locks, possibly of 1803 style. There seems to be a consensus that they were full stocked. Don Stith has developed a kit that many feel is pretty close to the real thing. Try St. Louis Plains Rifle Co. in your browser window. Should get you there.

 

[Hota]

I just went to the Lewis and Clark exhibit at the Academy of Natural Sciences Museum in Philadelphia. The exhibit will be there until March. I will have to go again because I brought my three little ones and I could not bring a camera in, so I couldn't possibly remember everything.

http://www.acnatsci.org/

They had Clark's rifle on display. They claim it was actually his rifle that he took on the expedition. It was an 1803 harpers ferry with a 1/2 stock in .32 caliber. It was modified to a percussion cap system in 1809.

The rifle they claim was Lewis' rifle was a 1792 contract rifle in .50 cal. They also had a blunderbuss and an air gun on display. They air gun was the first rifle to be able to shoot 22 rounds without having to be reloaded. It had a gas operated pump mechanism. According to the literature, it wasn't too effective and was only used for show to the indians to win respect.

It was a great exhibit and I highly recommend it for anyone interested. So many original items that I was blown away. Most of them exceptionally maintained from when they made there first shipment of goods back to Jefferson as they approached the divide. The day I went, there happened to be a photographer there giving a slide show. He made the voyage again 1997 photographing the present day trail. The slide show lasted about 1.5 hours and was well worth it.

 

[Leithan]

I found the pic of the rifle atributed to clark and a pic of a 1792 but it didnt say if it was lewis's rifle. so was Clarks rifle his own and not part of the 15 1792 contract rifles, not trying to be dense or anything just trying to get it all strait before I put chisel to wood.

 

[Hota]

Clark's rifle was his own. When Jefferson assigned Lewis the task of the expedition, Lewis enumerated what he would need. The contract rifles came out of the original request for goods. From what I gathered at the exhibit, Lewis spent a year and a half studying at various universities subjects such as geology, minerology, biology, as well as surveying, map drawing, etc because he was not prepared for the tasks he was charged with completing. Lewis asked Clark to co-command the expedition. However only one was assigned the true leadership role. Lewis received that role. Clark on the other hand was Lewis' friend and commander in the military. Clark was more focused on the security of the group and wanted the most modern fireamrs he could accumulate. I believe the placcard said that Clark's rifle was a gift.

I will be going back to the exhibit over the Christmas holiday and will try to get more info and possibly some pics. I'll try a little social engineering.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

According to the experts, no 1803 rifles were produced until Lewis and Clark were well on their way. An 1803 in .32 caliber would certainly be a great rarity as all known versions are in .54 caliber. Clark is supposed to have carried a "small" rifle firing balls that ran 100 to a pound or 70 grains each. A .32 caliber rifle uses balls of considerably lighter weight. They also carried an air rifle
and numerous pistols.

 

They had Clark's rifle on display. They claim it was actually his rifle that he took on the expedition. It was an 1803 harpers ferry with a 1/2 stock in .32 caliber. It was modified to a percussion cap system in 1809.

Kind'a makes me wonder why a smart fella like Clark, would venture into relatively unknown territory with such a "small calibur" weapon??

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Ohio Joe]

Kind'a makes me wonder why a smart fella like Clark, would venture into relatively unknown territory with such a "small calibur" weapon??

That's a good question? All I can guess is that back then the .32 was considered a man stopper, so??? I don't really know? This would make a good topic to discuss! :hmm:

 

It is altogether possible that the museum has mislabeled some of their items. Not all museum directors are firearms experts and not all of them are even good historians or espically good researchers.

Clark refers to his rifle often in the journals. He specifically said that the rifle shot 100 balls to the pound. That is .36 caliber, no matter what the museum says. It is not an 1803 model in .32. No 1803 rifles existed when the Corps left PA.

The museum does not have the 1803 rifle or any rifle Lewis carried on the voyage. All of the equipment was auctioned off in St Louis shortly after the Corps returned. I think I read that the rifles brought around $.50 (fifty cents each). All of the rifles were auctioned off and not a single specimen exists today. This is verified in the expidition journals.

The museum may have a gun that was once owned by Lewis, but they do not have the 1803 rifle or contract rifle he carried on the expidition! The pistol he suposidly used to commit suicide does exist.

The answers to most of the questions posed here are answered in the Journals of Lewis and Clark. I am truly suprised at the extent of the misinformation the museum is presenting. This is a traveling exhibit, so they may not have much control over accuracy of exhibit labels. You often cannot believe everything you see in a museum either.

 

The museum may have a gun that was once owned by Lewis, but they do not have the 1803 rifle or contract rifle he carried on the expidition! The pistol he suposidly used to commit suicide does exist.

Not to change the "topic" of this thread,.... but, wasn't it also claimed thet Lewis had to reload his pistol and fire it a "second time" to finish commit'n his suycide??

I cain't remember wher I read thet, but it was based on the theory thet Lewis was actually "murdered".

YMHS
rollingb

 

One hole in the chest, one in the head, one pistol.

Family refuses to allow an autoposy.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I believe Ghost has nailed it. When I went through advanced training in the army many years ago, they had a display of the firearms we could expect to encounter in our next duty station. Among them were a braun gun, a Stein gun and a karasake. What they actually were displaying were a Bren, a Sten and an Arisaka. None of which were in use in my new area of employment. This display had been set up on a military base by military personnel. So, just because they've got the credentials, don't mean they know what they're talkin' about.
The "small" rifle that was carried by Clark was supposed to have been in addition to his regular arm. I have never seen any mention of a .32 caliber rifle in literature about the expedition nor seen it mentioned in any of the historical programs on the subject. The air rifle is often mentioned-- probably way out of proportion to its actual importance.

 

One hole in the chest, one in the head, one pistol.

Family refuses to allow an autoposy.

Well!!.... if thets what it take to commit suycide,.... I ain't gonna "try" it!! :cry: :thumbsup:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Gary]

Regarding guns & museums, Museum Directors do not necessarily know anything about firearms (unless it's the Royal Armouries, Frazier Arms Museum, the Buffalo Bill Cody Firearms Museum or the Army's West Point Museum, the National Battlefield Museums at Gettysburg and Chickamauga. The aforementioned have knowledgeable staff who have plenty of books in their library to draw upon. If it's a general museum, well, fergit it.

Another issue is the provenance. Prove that one particular gun was within the possession of the original owner. Is there anything other than family oral tradition? Any papers like a receipt with description? Markings on the firearm itself? That's pretty tough.

I'll have to agree that we really don't know what the guns look like and we can only do estimate. Beaver Bill Keefer who made some of the 'hawks told me they did the same when they made the 'hawks for those collectors' sets.

It may take another researcher twenty or forty years from now who finds an obscure letter, diary or journal somewhere that establishes positive proof. By then, if any of us are still alive, we'll be in wheelchairs trying to remember who we are.

 

[pepperbelly]

One hole in the chest, one in the head, one pistol.

Family refuses to allow an autoposy.

Shot himself in the chest, picked his ass up off the floor, picked his pistol up, reloaded and shot himself in the head.
Like the man said, that requires a degree of determination to be envied by us all!
Jim

 

[Ohio Joe]

Clark refers to his rifle often in the journals. He specifically said that the rifle shot 100 balls to the pound. That is .36 caliber, no matter what the museum says. It is not an 1803 model in .32. No 1803 rifles existed when the Corps left PA.

I would think that the .36 would have been considered one of the common game taking calibers back in 1803. There were plenty of larger caliber firearms along with Lewis & Clark, so I doubt that Clark felt under gunned. That is until the Corp of Discovery came up against the Grizzly Bear...

I have been reading; Undaunted Courage, by Stephen E. Ambrose off and on for the past several years when I get in the Lewis & Clark mood. Someday I hope to complete the read. Who knows, maybe this winter? Yes, I'm a slow reader. I like to absorb what I'm reading...

 

I believe the Chronicals also said they carried Pennsylvania or long rifles.
: No 1803 was ever made in .36 to my knowledge - weren't they all .54cal.
: Years ago, I owned the condensed version of the 11 or 12 volumes of the Lewis and Clarke Chronicals. Even though these were supposed to be the highlights there was a LOT of boring reading in them. Someone I loaned them to, years ago, never returned them, so they're gone. I do remember them speaking of the .54 rifle's balls as being not being very effective against the plains grizzley's due to the ctgs. being too low in powder charge. I assume the charge was most likely in the 80gr. range, about equivalent to 100gr. today - probably - or 80gr. Swiss.
: The boys up here use 120gr.2F to 140gr.2F for Moose in their .54's. Necessary? maybe not, but very flat shooting to 125yds. & works splendidly on these largest of the deer family.
Daryl

 

Clark used the rifle on numerous deer with no problem. He had to be a bit careful when shooting elk and sometimes needed follow up shots. He tried it on buffalo and immidiately decided it was inadiquite.

On grizzly they were sure the .36 would be suicidal. They ordered everyone to carry their big rifles and travel in groups. Even with multiple hits from the initial volly bears chased the entire group into the Mo River a couple of times.

The journals are available on line

http://www.americanjourneys.org/

You can read every word if you have an extra month or two and detirmine what caliber hole was shot in Lewis' butt yourself, how many references there are to muskets, how the rifles were designed, etc.

There is a full inventory of supplies so reenactors have very little to argue over in relationship to the vouage. We know exactly what they had and what they did not have, where they obtained their knives and hawks (carry hatchets for the crew were made in KY, the hawks they obtained at Harpers Ferry were give-aways for the Indians), what their clothes were made from, how much powder to lead......

We just do not know exactly what their rifles or powder horns looked like.

 

[Leithan]

Thanks you all of the input, I have it in my head that their 1792s would of been similer looking to the the later 1803s, no real factuel basis for this but since no one can say for sure I'm wrong I will continue to assume that I am correct. I have been asked by a freind to build a "lewis and clark" gun for a presentation he is puting togeather for high schools, he has done a great job on uniforms and sundery items but as of yet has no guns, unfortunatly he onley has $160 to spare for the rifle as this presentation is funded mostly by donation and his private money, I was planning on Modifing a cheap replica wall hanger for the task, killing 2 birds with one stone, Cheap and impossible to fire, as this rifle will be carried into schools, I am not having much luck with finding a suitable replica though, the onley stipulation is that it cost less then $160 and can be converted to look about right.

 

Home Page: Day by Day with Lewis and Clark

Firearms of the Lewis and Clark Expedition:
A Review of Research

By Stuart Wier

Boulder, Colorado June 3, 2004.


Modern replica of a 1792 U.S. contract rifle, modified for the Expedition.
Harpers Ferry.

This report is a summary of what now is known about the firearms of the Lewis and Clark expedition. Some of the views summarized here are matters for debate and in such cases I present the conclusion which appears to me to have the preponderance of support and evidence in its favor.
The Lewis and Clark expedition carried many different kinds of guns. There were military guns and civilian guns, rifles and muskets, guns for hunting buffalo and guns for hunting squirrels, one small cannon, two miniature pocket pistols, and even an air gun. Firearms were essential tools for survival in the unmapped and unknown wilderness, remote from all sources of aid and supply. There was of course the possibility that guns might be needed for defense in case of Indian attack, but describing the guns primarily as weapons is misleading. Jefferson's instructions to the expedition clearly state that in all relations with the natives they were to "treat them in the most friendly and conciliatory manner which their own conduct will permit." The daily value of firearms was hunting for food and to collect specimens for natural history collections.

Captain Meriwether Lewis obtained fifteen military rifles from the U.S. Arsenal at Harpers Ferry, Virginia, and personal rifles were brought by civilian hunters, by Captain William Clark, and probably by Lewis. There were U.S. service muskets brought by soldiers posted from other units, and muskets owned by the French-Canadian boatmen. Lewis brought an air gun and a pair of pistols, and Clark brought an "elegant fusil" and a squirrel rifle. A swivel gun, a small cannon, was mounted on the keelboat and the pirogues had blunderbusses. Exact details of the expedition's firearms are lost to us since the only possible known surviving guns are the air rifle and Clark's small rifle and those are debatable. However, very similar guns of the period survive and are well known, letting us see and use guns like the guns the expedition relied on.

All the guns of the Lewis and Clark expedition were single-shot, muzzle loading, black powder guns with flintlock ignition. The notable exception is Lewis's air gun, which on several occasions astonished native Indians meeting with the expedition in council, since it fired several times without relaoding and since it was nearly silent.

Expedition Rifles

Initially Jefferson and Lewis envisioned an expedition of fifteen men: Lewis, a lieutenant, two sergeants, ten private soldiers, and a language interpreter. Lewis visited the U.S. Army arsenal at Harpers Ferry from March 16, 1803 to April 18, 1803, to obtain supplies for the journey, including fifteen rifles. Some of what he required came directly from stores, and other material had to be modified or made new, explaining his long stay at Harpers Ferry. The single most demanding item was a collapsible iron boat frame, intended to be assembled and covered with hides when the journey reached waters too small or inaccessible for the larger wooden boats used in the voyage of discovery.

Until 1999 it was thought that the military rifles obtained by Lewis from Harpers Ferry were the standard issue Model 1803 rifle of the U.S. Army. However this model was not actually manufactured until 1804 and so could not have been obtained by Lewis during his 1803 visit. He appears to have taken the U.S. 1792 contract rifle, overhauled to bring the guns up to top condition and to make some alterations to suit the needs of the expedition. For the complete case for the expedition's use of modified 1792 contract rifles see "The U.S. Contract Rifle Pattern of 1792", by Frank A. Tait, Man At Arms Magazine, Volume 21, Number 3 (June, 1999).

The modifications included swivels for slings and new flintlocks. Probably the barrels were shortened from 42 inches to a length of something like 36 to 33 inches. The shorter length would have been very handy on the expedition, carried by hand on boats and in rough terrain. The barrels were originally 0.49; some sources say they were rebored for the expedition to near 0.54 caliber. Fifty-four caliber is better for the large game of the west than 0.49, though of course Lewis could not have foreseen that.



Replica of expedition rifle, Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, National Park Service.
On April 20, 1803 Lewis wrote to Jefferson "My Rifles, Tomahawks & knives are already in a state of forwardness that leaves me little doubt of their being in readiness in due time." Lewis departed Washington for the west on July 5, 1803. On July 8, 1803 he wrote to Jefferson from Harpers Ferry, where he had just completed arranging wagon transport of his Harpers Ferry supplies to Pittsburgh. "Yesterday, I shot my guns and examined the several articles which had been manufactured for me at this place; they appear to be well executed."

The Model 1803 rifle may have been based, at least in part, on the gun design Lewis requested for the expedition. Secretary of War Henry Dearborn wrote to Harpers Ferry on May 25, 1803, requesting a prototype of a new rifle and suggesting some features that were used in the Model 1803 rifle. Gunsmiths there would have remembered the rifles Lewis had modified for the western journey, and the guns created for the expedition may well have suggested some features incorporated in the Model 1803 rifle. As late as December 2, 1803 Dearborn again wrote to the superintendent at Harpers Ferry saying that "The iron ribbed Rifle in my opinion is an excellent pattern, with the following very trifling alterations...." Clearly the "Model 1803" rifle was not available for Lewis by early summer 1803.

The modified 1792 contract rifle was apparently identical to or very similar to the Model 1803 rifle in some respects, including the patch box, the stock made of seasoned maple, and the side plate. The lock apparently was the same as the lock on the first Model 1803 Harpers Ferry rifles. The 1792 rifle differed from the Model 1803 in being full stock, possibly with a 42 inch barrel of 0.49 caliber (compared to a half stock on a 34 inch barrel of 0.54 caliber for Model 1803 rifle) and octagonal for the entire length (the model 1803 is partly round). The rear ramrod pipe and trigger guard had differing patterns. See Tait's report for photographs and details.

There are several references to "short rifles" in the expedtion journals:
Lewis, April 12, 1806: "we caused all the men who had short rifles to carry them in order to be prepared for the natives should they make any attempts to robe or injure them."
Ordway, June 18, 1806: "Drewyer and Shannon Sent on a head to go to the villages of the pell-oll-pellow nation they took one of the Short rifles in order to git a pilot if possable to go over the moutn with us."
Lewis, August 11, 1806: "... the ball had lodged in my breeches which I knew to be the ball of the short rifles such as that he had".
What were the "short rifles?"

The term short rifle may have been a simple way to refer to the rifles prepared at Harpers Ferry. In overhauling the rifles for the expedition Lewis could have had the barrel lengths reduced from 42 inches, perhaps to about 36 inches or even 33 inches. Hunters know that there is a real difference in handling guns with 33, 36, and 42 inch barrels, and this difference is even more pronounced when traveling in small boats. Lewis may have desired a handier rifle than one with a 42 inch barrel. Some additional if slight support for Harpers Ferry making shortened barrels is that the expedition rifles probably contributed to the design of the Model 1803 rifle which has a 33 inch barrel.

Also, some rifles were shortened during the expedition. Zoa L. Swayne (2003) has spent more than 30 years collecting Nez Perce accounts of the expedition-Nez Perce interactions. She describes a Nez Perce observation of Shields repairing two guns whose "muzzles had burst" by sawing them off and making "short guns" of them. "Captain Clark saw Speaking Eagle looking at those short guns and spoke with his hands, 'Do you want to trade the long gun we gave you for guiding us for this short gun?' 'A-a-a-a' Speaking Eagle said, thinking that a short gun would handle better. He handed over his long rifle for the sawed off gun."

I think both explanations are correct. Lewis could not tell, from looking at a bullet, whether it had been fired from a rifle whose barrel had been cut off, or from one of the same caliber with an unaltered barrel. Surely he recognized the caliber of the ball, and it was unique to the "short rifles," the ones made at Harpers Ferry. Also the Harpers Ferry guns were the best rifles in the party and that would explain Lewis's direction that they be on hand in case of attack on April 12, 1806. No commander would choose sawn-off guns with less accuracy for the weapon of choice.

At the moment I believe the fifteen expedition rifles were modified 1792 contract rifles, with full stocks, new Model 1803 locks, and barrels approximately 36 inches long and rebored to something in the 0.50 to 0.54 caliber range.

Other Rifles

Civilian hunters enlisted for the expedition, including the "seven young men from Kentucky," apparently brought their own firearms. They had to: Lewis's requisition of fifteen rifles at Harpers Ferry was not enough for the party of more than forty men who began the journey in May 1804. Drouillard, the French-Shawnee interpreter and perhaps the best hunter of the expedition undoubtedly used his own gun and it surely was a rifle.



Kentucky-Pennsylvania rifle
The common rifle of the day, of the western hunter and backwoodsman, was the "Kentucky" rifle. These typically American guns were often made by gunsmiths in eastern Pennsylvania, and are also called the Pennsylvania rifle. The hunters usually called them long rifles since they were typically 57 to 60 inches long and sometimes more than 65 inches. Barrels were generally 40 inches or more and the caliber was around 0.50. Functionally they are very much like the 1792 U.S. contract rifle -- in fact the contract rifles were made by gunsmiths in Pennsylvania who usually made long rifles -- but long rifles typically had more ornamentation such as fancy engraved patch boxes and wood carving, and more elaborate trigger guards and side plates. These guns were made one at a time by individual gunsmiths. Many fine examples survive of this handsome and famous style and are the subject of intense study. The books by Kindig and Kauffman listed in the Sources of Information below are two of the best.

Muskets

A musket is a smoothbore - the interior of the barrel is smooth unlike the rifle which has spiral grooves to impart spin to the ball. Muskets are easier and faster to load, an advantage in battle, but are considerably less accurate than rifles. Muskets can also fire small shot for hunting birds, like a modern shotgun. Since the expedition used firearms chiefly for hunting, and rifles were surely used by the better hunters for large game, muskets with shot would have generally been used for hunting birds.

We know Lewis intended from the beginning that muskets would be used on the journey. His 1803 list of supplies includes "125 musket flints." Some of the party, enlisted men coming from other units, brought their issue firearms, U.S. Model 1795 muskets. The Model 1795 musket was made in Springfield Massachusetts at the Springfield Armory, from 1795 to 1814, and at Harpers Ferry beginning in 1801. The total production was 80,000 to 85,000 guns. This gun was the first official musket model made for the U.S. government. The barrel is 44