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Lewis and Clark's rifle

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Here is a website that may help with the question of the Short Rifle; www.lcarchive.org

Ohio Joe.....Thanks for the link. While jumping around on the site I came across a "currency conversion by date" goodie, that I plugged some figures in.

I read somewhere that the Trade Rifle often sold for as much as $16.00 ...I'm assuming that was American currency for the day and time, or gold, based on it's value of the time....
Anyway, I found out that $16.00 in the year 1830, would be equivelant to $317.21 in "todays" currency.

I have to say that is much less than what I pictured in my mind. Especially when we speak of 6 months wages, wages must have been AWFUL LOW, and I can accept this....

If you use the term 6 months earnings that is just too subjective...

Anyway, thanks for the link....guess I will be spending some time reading on this site.

Russ
 
a "currency conversion by date"

That's a tough trick. So much changes in markets that it is hard to make a sliding scale. In Economics, we did a project using 20 loaves of bread and the average cost for a man's suit of clothes and shoes as a guideline for one week's "standard" wages for the 200 years prior. (Both of these were commonly advertised in handbills and newspapers throughout U.S. history). It was actually pretty flat. But, technology slides backwards when gauged on a standard $ scale. A rifle used to cost a man a year's wages. Now, a month's will get you a real drooler.

A pound of refined Aluminum would have made you fabulously rich in 1750, but a pound of that disappointing "fool's silver" Russian Platinum was little better than copper.

For a more recent example: how about a calculator or 640K desktop computer ( :haha:) from 1980 vs. a similar one from 2000.

I did a bit of coinage research, and until after the 1850's our own currency fluxuated regionally within America. Spanish coins were much preferred over U.S. mints. It was a real mess.
 
a "currency conversion by date"

That's a tough trick.


So much so, that I leave such tricks to you number farmers.

AAR...I still suspect that the cost of a rifle was equiv. to the family car / truck of today. Just a wild guess, but for the life of me I can't see how it would have been much different.

Russ
 
Ya know if some folks want them to have carried the '03 then it's okay with me. But in 1803, St. Louis was a long haul from Harper's Ferry. And L&C had certainly left the Harper's Ferry area in the summer of '03 with their rifles.
And there is no mention of new rifles being shipped to them in St. Louis or any where else. I don't quite understand why it is so important that these rifles were used by the expedition.

Could be that some folks have been reenacting L&C using that rifle and they don't want to hear different. ::
 
Russ,.... What would the $408.62 recieved from the expeditions "yard sale",.. be worth today in modern currency??

YMHS
rollingb
 
If there is a mention of a failure to set the trigger before firing that would seem to preclude the 1803 rifles presence on the journey. Leastwise, I can't recall seeing one pictured with a set trigger. It does seem that Lewis or Clark or someone would have written at least one definitive remark about the firearms taken along. Something about caliber such as "these half ounce balls are a touch light for grizzly bears" or about the rifles themselves-"these half stocks are handsome rifles" or "I much prefer the old style long stocked guns" or maybe "1803s! 1803s! WE AIN'T GOT NO STINKIN' 1803s! How much simpler history would be if only those creating it would take a few extra moments to be more specific. 'Course then we wouldn't be having these scintillating debates upon which hang the future of the universe.
 
Russ,.... What would the $408.62 recieved from the expeditions "yard sale",.. be worth today in modern currency??

YMHS
rollingb

I wasn't sure of the "exact" date of the infamous "yard sale" so I plugged in 1810.

It seems that $408.62 in 1810 would have the same purchasing power as $6,705.85 in the year 2003 (that's where the scale ends) Still less, in todays economy, than I had thought.

What was the exact date the items were sold? Guess I better look that up real quick....

Russ
 
hmmmmmmm....but the 1792's didn't have set triggers either...did they?? Did any military rifles have set triggers? I don't know of any.

Pays to have set triggers that can be fired un-set.

Rat
 
Here's a couple more:

http://www.searchforancestors.com/utility/inflation.html

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

Enter the amout and the dates you want to compare. This one comes up with $4,300 for 1810 to 2000 or 2003.

Here's a really good one:

http://eh.net/hmit/compare/

Using the consumer price index it returns $6,000, or $70,000 based on the unskilled wage, but using the relative share of the GDP per capita it returns $137,000 now for $408 in 1810.

For the pre-flint guys: here's one that gives the relative value of gold from the present back to 1257!

http://eh.net/hmit/goldprice/
 
I heard sumwher's thet Jacob Dickert charged 7 1/2 cents (per hour) fer his "time" build'n'n guns.

Be'ns thet I try to be as "PC" as possible, thet's also "what" I charge when I build'em. I ain't heard nobuddy complain yet!! (However,... Jacob warn't blind so, I'm sure his "quality of work" was much better'n mine!! :haha: :haha:)

YMHS
rollingb
 
This might be a dumb questian, did Jacob Dickert work at the HF armory, I think I remember reading that somewhere.
 
I'm not sure, 'bout all I know 'bout him is,.... he came to America (from Germany) in the early 1750's, had some gov. "contracts" in the 1790's, and died in 1822.

I'll see what I can find on the "net"!!

YMHS
rollingb
 
So far I've failed to find anythin thet would suggest Jacob Dickert worked at Harpers Ferry.

I did find thet Jacob Dickert and Matthew Llewellin of Lancaster, had a contract for 1000 rifles for the commonwealth of Pennsylvania in 1797.

YMHS
rollingb
 
Don't know about Jacob Dickert (c.1755-1822), but H.E.Leman did (maker of trade and plains rifle). The Arsenal ran from 1799 to 1861.

However, Jacob Dickert definately produced rifles under government contract which ended up being stored at the Arsenal. A fine distinction, like IBM and Ingersoll-Rand producing M1 Carbines as well as the Springfield Armory during WWII.

1792/1794 Lewis and Clark Contract Rifle

This RECREATED EXPEDITION RIFLE has been crafted based on the careful study of the five presently-known surviving examples (two of which are signed by Jacob Dickert) of the U.S. "Publick" Rifles in stores at Harpers Perry when Meriwether Lewis arrived in 1803.

All stock measurements and barrel profiles were derived from these five extant specimens. Buttplate and triggerguard castings were taken from rifles by Jacob Dickert and Peter Gonter, both suppliers of U.S. contract rifles in 1792 and 1794.
 
And we have not even gotten to the specifications Dearborn made for the origional "contract rifles". He had been stringent on the specs of the origional contract rifles and had already ordered the modification of all rifles in service once previously. (Working from memory here but I think the modification was cuting the straight tapered barrels to 39" and adding sling swivels?)

That means that the guns Lewis had reworked had already been reworked once before!

Dickert did furnish some of the contract rifles. Several marked and signed examples have survived.

The Journals do specify that Lewis picked up the expidition rifles at HF in the wagons he was using to transport all of the expidition supplies to the Ohio River.
 
What I find interesting is the exchange between Dearborn and Perkin, after the May 25, 1803 letter which directs Perkin to take action on the "Short Rifle" (see; www.lcarchive.org) (sub title subject; m1803 Documentation of the Short Rifle)...

June 6, 1803 (Perkin to Dearborn)
Perkin asked if the rifles should be equipped with bayonets?

June 16, 1803 (Dearborn to Perkin)
"It is not considered expedient to have bayonets to the rifles".

Expedient in what regard? The L & C Expedition recieving these "Short Rifles" in time to make the journey? That would be my conclussion.

From Dearborn's letter of May 25th we can gather that he, Dearborn, is already familiar with the halfstocked, iron ribbed, 33 inch barreled rifle with steel ramrod. He prefers the "Short Rifle" over the commonly used long ones. Therefore some must have already existed and had been tested. :hmm:

Your better at wording this stuff then I, Ghost... What do you think? Is it possible about the "Short Rifle" existing before the May 25th letter???
 
i wish i had the time to do as much research as you two, but, ifn i wuz still in school, this would be one heck of a paper. that is, depending on wether it is censord for not being p/c(politically correct) :what: :m2c: :thumbsup:
 
Thanks stumpkiller thats probebly where I got the idea that he worked for the HF armory.
 
June 6, 1803 (Perkin to Dearborn)
Perkin asked if the rifles should be equipped with bayonets?

June 16, 1803 (Dearborn to Perkin)
"It is not considered expedient to have bayonets to the rifles".

What he is asking is would bayonets be useful. Commonly rifles didn't take bayonets at this time. The question is should these be equipped to accept a bayonet. In the context you posted there is no indication the L&C journey figured into it.
 
In the era of time we are considering rifles were tools for skirmishers and snipers. These troops normally did not stand in formation and fire volly as did normal troops.

The normal means of combat being volly fire and a final charge with the bayonet, with the best disciplined army being victorious, muskets were simply an evolution of the pike. A simple platform on which to mount the bayonet, and ability to launch a projectile being secondary in their role as a weapon.

I feel dearborn is using the term "expediant" to mean needed or necessary. Bayonets were not necessary on weapons used by scouts, skirmishers and snipers.

I have seen the adoption of several weapons systems since I was old enough to realize what was going on (as in might be holding one of the weapons in self defense some day). Dearborn's requirements are the most sensable and shortest stipulations that I have ever read. The weapons designed by Dearborn (and Lewis?) served the U.S. as the main rifle (not main battle weapon) for the nest 20 years.

Weapons systems are often labeled by the year of their trial or design, not issue. Some weapons are ahead of their time, some obsolete when adopted. The M-16 was "experimental" for 11 years before adoption. It has been the standard issue for 37 years and some of us still expect to have wood stocks on our rifles!

The 1803 was a departure from the norm, a glimpse of things to come. Equiped with a half stock, an iron rib, shorter than a normal rifle and larger in bore than the civilian trend of that day.

As distinctive and different from civilian weapons as they were, the 1803 model would have drawn attention everywhere it went. There would have been newspaper reports about the "new rifles", journal entries and diary entries by people along the path of the expidition that were allowed to fire the experimental guns as the troop floated down the Ohio (they commented on everything else). None of the members of the expidition seem to take note of their possession of a "new and/or unusual rifle" and none of the visitors mention the group being unusually equiped. They do mention the "trick gadgets" like the air rifle, so they were taking note. (the air rifle was not just a toy, they killed buffalo with it!)

None of the expidition members make note of the rifles being of unusual or experimental form. Lewis and Clark both make extensive and precise journal entries on the performance of all of the equipment, flora, fauna and people they encountered on the journey. If part of their expidition was a test of an experimental rifle they would have percisely refered to the rifles and made comment as such.

"The new model rifles proved satisfactory/unsatisfactory in design and performance"

"We are quite pleased/displeased with the performance of the new model rifles in all situations"

"The locks on the new model rifles will need improvement/bigger flints/redesign before they are issued to the troops"

"The bores on the new rifles are too big/small"

No specific referances beyond the normal comments on the use of their rifles are made that I find in the journals.

They would have probably been expected to file a complete report on the rifle performance on their return. They did not.

If I were Dearborn, and had just designed a new rifle, I would have expected my creations to have been returned to the Harper's Ferry for evaluation at the end of the expidition. Return was not a problem, the expidition shipped tons to samples back east. I would have wanted them disassembled and inspected for their performance and survival potential in the field. Instead, the weapons used in what would have been the most important "field test" in history were sold at auction for $.50 each!

I have read some of the congressional debate over the fittings used on the military weapons of that era. Those guys would fight duels over the use of brass instead of steel for the trigger plate! Dearborn would have wanted this information.

I personally feel that all of the evidence points toward the reworking of contract rifles to a uniform bore size and installation of locks with interchangable parts. The rifles looked just like any other rifle of the time, only a bit shorter. That's why they were refered to as the "short rifles", not the new model rifles/experimental guns.

If the model used had been a radical change, as was the 1803 mod, people along the way and expidition members would have made extensive comments. Lewis and Clark would have returned the examples for evaluation and/or submitted an extensive test report.

This is my opinion, I could be wrong, I have been before. (gosh, :eek: Stumpy and Musket Man will both read that!!) This is just what the existing paperwork, that I have read so far, proves too me.
 
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