Lewis & Clark Rifle Found?

[tsmgguy]

I'm getting somewhat excited as Jess of The Rifle Shoppe tells me that my new replica Lewis & Clark Expedition rifle is almost ready for shipping. As
I was ordering this rifle, Jess mentioned that he had the chance to examine what he believed to be an authentic rifle used by the Expedition, and indeed had copied it in all respects for his new reproductions. He said that it was marked "Harper's Ferry" and "15".

At this point, I don't even know what the replica will look like, as the TRS catalog and web site do not picture it.

Does anyone know of a web site that discusses and pictures rifle #15? It seems to me that if this really is an Expedition rifle, that it is pretty much the Holy Grail of gun collecting. I am unable to think of another more important or historic. Arguably, of course.

 

:shocked2:

 

[rabjr]

:shocked2: :shocked2:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Can't find anything on the web about it.

 

[ohio ramrod]

To my knowledge there is considerable debate on which rifles they really had. Since the 1803 Harpers ferry did not go into production until six months after Lewis left. Did he have contract rifles which were stored at Harpers ferry, contract rifles refitted with 1803 locks, or actual 1803 rifles not recorded( remember he had a letter from the president requesting the rifles ). I remember reading a few years back about an early air rifle that matched the description of the air rifle they had, right down to a "crude" replacement main spring. The journals recorded that their smith repaired the air rifle spring. The origional rifles were considered government property and were auctioned off on their return to pay part of the cost of the expedition, Government surplus ssales are nothing new! Now what about the rumor of 1945 Indian Chief motercycles still in the crate found in a government warehouse?

 

[AeroncaTAL]

The air rifle is at the U.S. Army War College. Here's a link which describes the finding of the rifle:

Air Rifle

Scott

 

Last I heard, even the authors of the article on that rifle had backed off a bit on promoting it as a Corps of Discovery Rifle. Sounds like TRS hasn't. Doesn't surprise me.

Sean

 

[Johnny Tremain]

The post is so worthless without pictures

You tell Jess I said to get his butt in gear and learn how to use a digital camera :2

 

[tsmgguy]

These are scans from the 2007/08 Rifle Shoppe Catalog concerning this rifle. Sorry for the poor quality of the scans: this is my first effort at posting these. After you click on the thumnail, click on "full size" in the upper left hand corner.

As you can see, Jess thought this rifle different enough from later M1803 models to give it the M1800 US Short Rifle designation.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The problem is there's precious little in way of provenance shown. The #15 could just as easily refer to the 15th prototype of the 1803 rifle. Seems like Lewis or Clark or someone would have mentioned that they were using a brand new type of rifle on the expedition. After all, they were real excited about their "portable soup" and the iron framed boat.

It would be nice to have the rifle question resolved once and for all, but I think I'll wait for more solid information to appear.

 

[mazo kid]

Well.....maybe.....but I am still sceptical.

 

[tsmgguy]

Point well taken. I do rather agree with the point made in the text that Lewis would hardly have been satified with well used, cut down 1792 Commission rifles.

So, we know that serial M1803 rifle production did not begin for some three months after Lewis visited the Harper's Ferry arsenal. The rifles would likely have passed through a prototype stage, would they not? I can imagine Lewis showing up there, taking one look at a rack of brand new prototypes and saying, "What's that?", then upon examining one, realizing that it was perfect for his needs.

The entire COD 1792 Commission rifle theory seems to be based on the assumption that if M1803 rifles were not yet available, then 1792 rifles MUST have been used. But, no one to my knowledge has ever tied 1792 rifles directly to the Expedition.

I like the theory set out above, and it nets me a throughly beautiful rifle!

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

First of all, congratulations on your new rifle.

Another scenario might be: Lewis visits armory and sees new prototype rifle. Says to armory head, "Gee, that's a neat looking rifle! Too bad it hasn't been proven yet and fully developed. Some guys and myself are going on a hike and we need about 15 rifles to take along. We need well sorted and proven equipment and that includes rifles. Got anything else for me?" :wink:

 

[tmdreb]

"Serial number 15"? Were any other US arms marked with serial numbers in 1800?

 

[Stumpkiller]

First of all, congratulations on your new rifle.

Another scenario might be: Lewis visits armory and sees new prototype rifle. Says to armory head, "Gee, that's a neat looking rifle! Too bad it hasn't been proven yet and fully developed. Some guys and myself are going on a hike and we need about 15 rifles to take along. We need well sorted and proven equipment and that includes rifles. Got anything else for me?" :wink:

The advantage of building an unknown rifle is that you can make your version fit the available information and still not be bang on but be close enough to satisfy available info and speculation.

I'm guilty of it myself. I have an iron mounted, cherry stocked Lehigh because I like the looks of iron and wanted cherry. The experts state "most " Lehighs were brass mounted and maple stocked. Well, most is not all. :wink:

The armory visit is great speculation. Whether he spotted the experimental/prototypes. Whether he would have wanted untried designs. Whether the engineers would have allowed their prototypes to leave the premises. Whether they would have insisted L&C select from the thousands of available rifles instead of rush production to meet a short deadline to get brandy new rifles in the hands of the Corps before they left. Whether the designers saw this as a chance to boost their product and encouraged it. Whether they just pimped up some M1795's for the occasion. We don't know if they did or didn't.

As for an untried design. L&C took spare locks, parts, a gunsmith, even had the equipment to freshen rifling in the field. It's not like they were like us and dependant on mail order. ;-)

When I entered this pursuit L&C carried the 1803, period. Then someone showed the M1803 line wasn't up and running until after the expedition left. Maybe something will turn up in an attic or dig site that will settle it. Until then TRS's version is as good as necessary.

Enjoy it.

 

Point well taken. I do rather agree with the point made in the text that Lewis would hardly have been satified with well used, cut down 1792 Commission rifles.

So, we know that serial M1803 rifle production did not begin for some three months after Lewis visited the Harper's Ferry arsenal. The rifles would likely have passed through a prototype stage, would they not? I can imagine Lewis showing up there, taking one look at a rack of brand new prototypes and saying, "What's that?", then upon examining one, realizing that it was perfect for his needs.

The entire COD 1792 Commission rifle theory seems to be based on the assumption that if M1803 rifles were not yet available, then 1792 rifles MUST have been used. But, no one to my knowledge has ever tied 1792 rifles directly to the Expedition.

I like the theory set out above, and it nets me a throughly beautiful rifle!

TMSguy, there is nothing wrong with wanting one of these and thinking that the story is neat. The whole debate between the 1792/1803 really comes down to two camps of thought, the simple answer camp and the complex answer camp. Complex answers are in my opinion, fun but unlikely. As you know, that's pretty much how I feel about this gun. However, I do feel this is a lot more fun to talk about than politics, and which ever way you go, the result will be more useful than any politician.

Sean

 

Point well taken. I do rather agree with the point made in the text that Lewis would hardly have been satified with well used, cut down 1792 Commission rifles.

So, we know that serial M1803 rifle production did not begin for some three months after Lewis visited the Harper's Ferry arsenal. The rifles would likely have passed through a prototype stage, would they not? I can imagine Lewis showing up there, taking one look at a rack of brand new prototypes and saying, "What's that?", then upon examining one, realizing that it was perfect for his needs.

The entire COD 1792 Commission rifle theory seems to be based on the assumption that if M1803 rifles were not yet available, then 1792 rifles MUST have been used. But, no one to my knowledge has ever tied 1792 rifles directly to the Expedition.

I like the theory set out above, and it nets me a throughly beautiful rifle!

i guess it's true then. there really are people that can talk themselves into Anything.
:hmm:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Probably not. It's fun to speculate, and maybe more information will be forthcoming. That rifle doesn't look to me as if it spent a lot of time out in the elements though. The stock isn't beaten up enough and the barrel key sits in an unre-enforced slot in the forestock and yet after a couple of years of serious use it doesn't appear to be worn or cracked. I've seen safe queens with more damage to their wood. But there's no harm in building a copy of the rifle that I can see. Could probably stamp a number 15 on it too....

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

"Serial number 15"? Were any other US arms marked with serial numbers in 1800?

I'm away from my books and my memory is not what it used to be, but all of Harpers Ferry production, muskets and rifles, was serial numbered from the beginning of production (about 1800) until at least 1806, possibly later, as I said, I just can't remember. Serial numbers were marked on the barrel breach.

According to "The Guns of Harers Ferry" by Stuart E. Brown the William M. Locke collection (ca. 1976) had M1803 rifles with the following serial numbers:
1804 - 974
1805 - 1895
1806 - 3207
He also mentions a Model 1803 dated 1803 with the serial number 844.

As an aside, Stuart also mentions that on Jan. 1, 1810 there were "on hand at Harpers Ferry, "fit for service", 3113 "short" rifles "marked Harpers Ferry", and 188 "long" rifles". :wink:

 

[gonzomann]

I'm thinking a fellow need to get ONE OF EACH rifle and then you could be ALMOST sure you had a Corp rifle! :thumbsup: