Loaded Flea Market Shotgun

[Tumblernotch]

I picked up an old SxS ML shotgun along the road at the flea market this morning. It's in pretty bad shape and at this time not fireable due to really messed up locks. The barrels appear to be salvageable and if nothing else, the hammers, buttplate and trigger guard can be used on another gun. The barrels are Belgian with Liege proofs and drawn steel instead of Damascus. Since I got it so cheap, I couldn't pass it up. It's worth what I paid just for the parts.

Anyhoo, as I was talking to the guy and getting him to knock the price down (which I did), I dropped the Old ramrod down the tubes and in the process found that something was in the right one. Kinda soft and spongy. He told me that the old man he got it from said that it had been under his bed for over 30 years. When I got it home I used a large ball screw and was able to pull a wad from it and shake out the shot. It was loaded with a duplex load of BB shot and Number 9's. I then pulled the wad from over the powder and dumped out 10 grs. of what appeared to be fffg. Some appeared to be crushed. But there was only 10 grs. in it.

After photographing this, I dumped the powder on my sidewalk and put a match to it. It went off like new powder. I then unwadded the cushion wad which was made of a piece of a magazine page. The date was December 24, 1944. Even allowing for a period of time for that magazine to have been lying around, that gun had probably been loaded for at least 60 years. And though it contained a light powder charge, there was enough to kill or maim someone with that large shot in it.

So, if you pick up an old piece like this that's not in shooting condition, don't assume it ain't loaded or can't go off. Check and clear the barrel(s) before you start work on any of it. :thumbsup:

 

[streetsniper]

Sounds like an episode from "sanford and son". The one with the Brown Bess. I've seen that story line on other tv shows. Never heard of it really happening. It wouldn't have been a comedy if you pulled the trigger and accidentally shot someone with it. Billy

 

[10 gauge]

I love hearing cool stories like this, and congratulations on your treasure find.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I remember that episode! :rotf: Wouldn't happen in my case since the locks are completely useless. But, accidents always find a way to happen. I just feel a lot better knowing that those barrels are empty and a stray spark flying from a grinder or welder in the shop won't find its way to the load.
:grin:

 

[Tumblernotch]

Thanks! I still wish it was an old musket. Or that load I pulled was wadded up Confederate money or something like that! Then I'd really be excited! But I've learned to be content with the little treasures. :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Those light powder charge loads were what people loaded in shotguns for INDOORS self defense load, where they didn't want the shot going through a wall, or out a window and hurting someone across the street.

The mix of shot make sure that the larger pellets opened up faster, so the gun did not have to be pointed very accurately in the short hallways and rooms of the average house, or apartment. Think of what pool balls do when they crash into anything. That is what happens when the BB and #9 bump together, with the heavier balls trying to push through the very light #9 shot pellets.

I think he could have used more than 10 grains of powder, and still be safe, but maybe that is all he had, and he was using his powder sparingly. The small charge will still put the world of hurt on someone, and if it hits the eyes, they will be just as blind as if they were hit with shot flying at 1300 fps.

We once pushed no more than 5 grains of FFFFg priming powder behind a dry ball, and the owner proceeded to take careful aim off a benchrest! :shocked2: at an 8-inch bangplate at 25 yards. He fired his .62 caliber rifle, shooting a 325 grain PRB, and the ball hit the plate DEAD CENTER. I could have won lots of money from people betting the ball might not even get out the barrel, much less travel 25 yards. So don't underestimate small powder charges. In fact, this is one load it will be fun to replicate and try out just to see how it performs. I won't have to worry about wearing ear plugs to protect my ears from the :thumbsup: noise, I am willing to bet!

 

[10 gauge]

I saw that Sanford and Son episode. Then they take a torch and melt the gun down to destroy the evidence, only to find out that nobody got shot from the accidental discharge and then they come to find out that the musket was worth thousands of dollars. :rotf:

 

[Tumblernotch]

I'm not sure where the gun originally came from, though I'd be willing to bet that it was from around here. And most likely the owner simply didn't have enough powder for a full load. I've shot very light loads of powder behind both ball and shot and people would be amazed at the power and accuracy that can be had!

The locks had been completely disabled by someone re-arranging the internals and one of the mainsprings was broken and part missing. I'd like to know the story behind this old gun. At any rate, if I decide not to restore it (which would be a major job), I have some good parts to work with on other jobs. I'm already eyeing the trigger guard for modification to use on my new chunk gun. :wink: I still yet have to fully inspect the barrels to see how safe they are.

 

[Britsmoothy]

My current Pedersoli double came from the dealers loaded with powder and wads! SO CHECK!

Oh and it whent off!

Britsmoothy.

 

[Dave K]

The 14ga., that is my dove gun, was bought in the same condition as yours. Of course the seller didn't know it and neither did I. But, the right lock was broke and is probably the reason the that barrel was still loaded. It took some"digging" to get all the powder, shot and newspaper wad out, but the powder went off just fine, when I put a match to it.

 

[Mulebrain]

Nice story!

Now wheres the pictures

 

[Tumblernotch]

If I can remember how to use PhotoBucket again I'll try to send one soon. It ain't much fer looks though.

I had planned on starting on a new mule ear lock this morning, but had to go to WallyWorld and get some OL' Roy and some cereal. Stopped along the road to look at some junk and well...there you have it. And of course when I get home you know I just gotta take that old smoker apart!
:thumbsup:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

back in the late '70's a building contractor I knew (he since passed on) bought an old farm house in a remote area of Henderson county, N.C. and while going through the stuff left in it evidently by the occupant found a Civil War era musket hidden in a corner closet that was capped. he was examinig the gun and just absentmindedly had cocked the hammer back I suppose to see if it would cock. for some unknown reason he pulled the trigger maybe when just looking the gun over and KA-BOOM. a hole through the ceiling and floor of upper room and sheet metal roof. no telling how long the musket had been stuck in the closet loaded. an old farmer had lived there and when he died his relatives didn't take much out of the house the old man didn't have anything worth much so they left all his personal stuff untouched.

 

[Parzifal]

Nice story!

Now wheres the pictures

Ummmmm...Yes please

 

[Bob Gular]

A family story often told by my late favorite Uncle Alex was about my Grandfather, upon bringing home a civil war rifle for which he had paid the princely sum of three dollars (that's what they went for in the twenties)discovered it was loaded with more than one charge. He said the ramrod came to halt at least a foot from the breech. So Grandpop did what he thought he should and lashed the rifle to a porch post, tied a string to the trigger, cocked and capped the piece, and went around the corner of the house and pulled the string. The result was a loud roar, a huge cloud of smoke, and a shredded bed of Grandmom's gladiolas. Grandpop said to Alex "don't tell your mother". Alex replied "I don't think I'll have to".
Thanks for bringing that old story to the surface.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have a Belgian-made breechloading shotgun that was my grandfather's. Its a hardware store gun, made for the company that eventually became the True Value Hardware store chain.It has exposed hammers, and the barrels are cold roll steel that were made with a " twist finish".( Fake Damascus look, made with light acid etching.) The chambers are the European sizing in metrics, about 2 9/16", rather than our 2 3/4" long shells.

I relieved the throats of the barrels with a tapered reamer, and we polished the bores with the Brownell Bore Polishing stones, to remove much, but not all the pitting. I shoot low pressure 2 3/4" shells out of it, both plastic, and now Brass casings loaded with BP loads.

Before the Cowboy Action craze began, you couldn't give these old guns away. Now, I have people drooling over mine whenever I have it out at the range. I may have to refinish the stock, or even put some better wood on it. I have left it in as much " as is " condition as I could, but the firing pins are soft, and are peening over again.

There was a very thin, wire rebounding spring on the firing pins, but both were rusted through and broken. I polished the tips of the firing pins round to allow them to fire the primers, but not stick into them and keep the gun from opening. I have killed dove, and rabbit with the gun to date. I think its worth the effort to restore these guns, but in my case, its a family heirloom, and that gave the gun value to keep as is regardless of the costs of repair.

Since both old Breechloaders, and MLers have their own categories in CAS shoots, I think any gun that can be put back into shooting condition and is safe is a worth while project, and property to own.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Gee sounds like one of whitetail's guns. I had a good friend who died this spring who always left his guns loaded for years at a time , and if he had problems he woulkd bring them to me to fix. About half of the time they would be loaded.As the old saying goes treat all guns as if they are loaded!

 

[Dave K]

Paul, the standard 2 3/4" chambers were not standard until 1928. 12ga, guns were 2 5/8" and 16ga. and 20ga. guns were 2 9/16". Even early Model 12's need to have their chambers and ejection port opened to get consistant extraction. I believe it was 1916 though when Win. opened 12ga. chamber abd ejection port for 2 3/4". Actually the advent of star crimped hulls, over roll crimped hulls, is what brought about the change. Unfired roll crimped and star crimped are the same length until they are fired. Then the star crimp extends out to 2 3/4". Twist barrels are pretty standard and and etched pattern twist barrels are extremely rare and very rarely shown to be other than what they really appear to be. The twist barrels are probably just that. This is a topic we have researched and beat to death on a double barrel site I frequent. The expense to etch them just would have added to the cost. If they really are etched, then they are of really poor quality even at that time and shooting them even with low pressure, would be risky.Many of the early hardware store guns were made or distributed by about 3 different gun manufactures/importers, that would place the name that the hardware store that would use on thier guns. Much like Sears uses the the name Ted Williams.

 

[paulvallandigham]

This gun was owned by my grandfather before he married my Grandmother, and that was in 1905. It may have been a used gun when he bought it. The Store name is Hibbard and Spenser, a large hardware store in Chicago, until the Depression, when it merged and became the True Value Hardware store company. It would have been the Sear,Roebuck & Sons of its day.

Long before I got the gun in 1965, my grandfather, or someone had taken emery cloth to the barrel, and removed 99% of the finish. The only ammo he had for it was old Peters Roll crimp shells that were 2 3/4" long. All my uncles and Grandmother could remember was that he went to Michigan to " Hunt " with relatives, but no one could ever remember him bringing home any game. One Uncle thought it more likely that his father and uncles and cousins spent most of the time playing cards and drinking in a cabin, and very little time trying to kill ducks.

I believe that somewhere along the way, the gun was neglected and rusted. I say that because a couple of the shells would not fire, and the one that did put a 1 inch diameter hole through the paper at 50 yards! The lead shot has fused together. We cut a shell open after that first shell fired, and found that the pellets had corroded into a lump of lead and lead oxide. Dad put the last unfired shell into his cartridge collection, which was sold many years later.

When I got the gun it was taken apart, and cleaned and then oiled. The 30 inch barrels were marked Full and Full, giving credence that the family memories that Grandpa used it to hunt Ducks were probably correct. However, there was a long, 8 inch scratch in the right barrel from the muzzle back, and the scratch was about half the thickness of the barrel deep at the muzzle, which, as was the custom in those days, was paper thin.

The gun stayed in our gunrack for years. I finally was able to research the name on the gun and found out about the hardware store. I also checked to see if there was any collector value, and found none.

I decided that it deserved a better fate than to be a wall hanger, so I cut the 8 inches off the front of the gun, making the barrel open cylinder, and only 22 inches long. I put a new bead front sight on it, and filled in the gap at the muzzle between the barrels with some liquid steel. I darkened that with some cold bluing solution I had, and folks have to look close to realize that its not original. I don't try to hide the facts from anyone looking at it. The gun is not for sale. I have enjoyed shooting it, and recently my brother worked on the massive springs and action to reduce the spring tension. Its still heavy by modern standards, but a lot lighter than it was.

I like the sound of those huge 12 gauge brass casing sliding home in those chambers, t-t-th-hu-u-um-m-mp! and it surely gets the attention of the other shooters at the skeet range. I have shot it at Sporting Clays, and the gun is up to it when I am, also.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I think its worth the effort to restore these guns, but in my case, its a family heirloom, and that gave the gun value to keep as is regardless of the costs of repair.

Since both old Breechloaders, and MLers have their own categories in CAS shoots, I think any gun that can be put back into shooting condition and is safe is a worth while project, and property to own.

Well Paul, I finally completely disassembled the gun down to the last screw. When I removed the tang screw the stock fell apart. It was broke in two. The locks were in terrible shape. One mainspring broken, a sear missing and the plates were bent (that could be fixed). All in all, not worth the labor to rebuild. The hammers are good and could be used on another shotgun or even on rifles. The stock is beyond reasonable repair. There are already screws and brads from early repairs. Like I said, the barrels don't look too bad and I'll know more once I can get some light in there to see. I've put Liquid Wrench on the nipples and it's going to take the use of ViceGrips to get them out. Someone had already rounded the squares plus there is cap erosion. The forward ramrod pipe is missing but the other one is still there.

It's obvious that this is an old hardware store gun. Other than the number 12 on several parts, the only markings are on the barrels and they are the usual Belgian proofs and bore sizes in metric.
The barrel shows no sign of being etched which surprised me a little.

One interesting thing was that someone had put a fish inlay on with brads very long ago on the right side of the stock and on the left can be seen the faint outline of where a six pointed star had been. Like a sheriff's star. Shame it wasn't still there.

I've already put the parts up in my box and the wood in my scrap wood box. If it wasn't for the trigger guard, buttplate and hammers, I'd say I completely wasted $65. But, there's a good chance that the guard will find a home on my new chunk gun and the hammers and buttplate will be on another shotgun, possibly with the barrels. I also saved the entry pipe which is in great shape.

I'm going to download my pictures from the camera and if I can get it to work, I'll post some pics if they came out good enough. :grin: