Loading revolvers question.

[OkieDougie]

I've used 454 balls with lube wad under it. Nice ring of lead shaved and very accurate. Lee use to make a conical mold not sure if they still do. More rounded and supposed to work in Remington new army.??

ErasGone sells a 44 English Kerr mold. These fit fine in my Uberti 1858. 25 grains of powder, wad, bullet.
https://erasgonebullets.webstarts.com/store/product/-44-english-kerr-

 

[Brokenbear]

Look at my grandson's picture in my avatar ...
Then YOU decide if pinched on caps and poorly sealed chambers are "OK"

 

[Red Owl]

You bring up a good point, some revolvers, like the Colt Navy had a rather small cut for the ball/conical. Some of the new bullet shapes are so large you can't fit them in. I think the Remington has about the largest cut.

 

[maillemaker]

You bring up a good point, some revolvers, like the Colt Navy had a rather small cut for the ball/conical. Some of the new bullet shapes are so large you can't fit them in. I think the Remington has about the largest cut.

Conical ammunition was the norm for military issue in period. Most reproduction revolvers do not have the loading gate cut as deeply as the original guns did, as they were designed with round ball ammunition in mind.

 

[Red Owl]

That explains a lot. Thanks

 

[Stantheman86]

There's so much conflicting info. Skeeter Skelton says Civil War vets used to teach him how to shoot his .36 Navy and they'd cut wads out of old hats.

But NRA match shooters avoid wads.

We are taught that pinching caps is inviting a chain fire , but I just watched a YouTube video with Dr Nemeth talking about pinching caps to fit on a Uberti Walker.

I read an original account of Confederate Cavalrymen writing about how they loved the .36 Navies and "round ball puts a man down and keeps em down , conicals pass clean through" where some people swear conicals have better stopping power.

I'd say just listen to the guys who have used these guns in combat or shoot 1000s of rounds a year, because I've gotten "advice " from guys at the range who bought a .44 Navy Brasser Redi-Pak at Cabelas and put 2 cylinders through it , and will tell me I have to use grease over the chambers or I'll get a chain fire because some guy told him this years ago and they "did that in the Old West"

 

[maillemaker]

The cap-entry chain fire idea is easily testable by simply firing the revolver with all 6 chambers loaded but only a cap on the chamber being fired.

I still contend that the tube in a percussion revolver is open on both ends and so if either end is not plugged with something then there is a risk of a chain fire. We know they happen (YouTube) and we know that loose balls can cause it (again, YouTube).

I've been shooting black powder revolvers since I first bought one of thse .44 Navy blister packs at Walmart back in 2000 or so. Been shooting them in N-SSA competition for about a decade. I lube-over-ball because the N-SSA requires it. Haven't ever had a chain fire, and I've done the old pincheroo over the years with #11 caps.

 

[gunpa]

Luckily Remington # 10 caps fit my Remington new army (aka 1858) nice and tight and stay put.

 

[Bad Karma]

There's so much conflicting info. Skeeter Skelton says Civil War vets used to teach him how to shoot his .36 Navy and they'd cut wads out of old hats.

But NRA match shooters avoid wads.

We are taught that pinching caps is inviting a chain fire , but I just watched a YouTube video with Dr Nemeth talking about pinching caps to fit on a Uberti Walker.

I read an original account of Confederate Cavalrymen writing about how they loved the .36 Navies and "round ball puts a man down and keeps em down , conicals pass clean through" where some people swear conicals have better stopping power.

I'd say just listen to the guys who have used these guns in combat or shoot 1000s of rounds a year, because I've gotten "advice " from guys at the range who bought a .44 Navy Brasser Redi-Pak at Cabelas and put 2 cylinders through it , and will tell me I have to use grease over the chambers or I'll get a chain fire because some guy told him this years ago and they "did that in the Old West"

Elmer Keith mentioned hearing this from Civil War Veterans as well. About wads and the efficacy of the .36 ball. He wasn’t a big mid bore fan though and felt that if a .36 ball was good then a .45 caliber ball was that much better. Wrt lube it’s not really needed for the Colts and if the barrel cylinder gap is right they will run without lube for a good while.

 

[Stantheman86]

The logical

Elmer Keith mentioned hearing this from Civil War Veterans as well. About wads and the efficacy of the .36 ball. He wasn’t a big mid bore fan though and felt that if a .36 ball was good then a .45 caliber ball was that much better. Wrt lube it’s not really needed for the Colts and if the barrel cylinder gap is right they will run without lube for a good while.

I used Mutton Tallow in my Dragoon and it ran all day without wiping it out, I'll post my YouTube video later if anyone is looking to burn 10 minutes of their life watching me load a Dragoon

 

[Red Owl]

It ought to be pointed out that years ago there wasn't "round" balls, the mold had a sprue cutter but the ball still had a flat sprue and this was normally oriented toward the muzzle so the flat sprue hit first- sort of like a semi-wadcutter.
Dixie Gun Works has/has historically correct conical bullets with the rebated base for the case. I've shot these and in my opinion they get moved out of alignment when rammed into the chamber and are not as accurate as the balls. A lot of Western lawman would load with balls and as much powder as the gun could hold but carried the combustible cartridges for back up.

 

[Erwan]

It ought to be pointed out that years ago there wasn't "round" balls, the mold had a sprue cutter but the ball still had a flat sprue and this was normally oriented toward the muzzle so the flat sprue hit first- sort of like a semi-wadcutter.

I'm not sure of it...
Like All people here I spend a lot of my time to experiment this or that and other things...
I had long time ago a very old Lyman mold making important sprue on the cast round bullets (defect of the mold and cutting plate) gave me an idea : compare this with the other.
You know what, all the bullets made with that mold and in the recovered in a big rag bag had the sprue behind the bullet, and, with other molds (LEE, RCBS without prominent sprue) the sprues were in all position...
After modification of the Remington's pushing piston (rectified to the shape of the bullet), this mold was still firing its round bullets like the others: the sprue was crushed....
Since that time, I think that the sprues are still oriented by the aerodynamics and are positioned towards the back of the ball when the sprues are too big.

It's maybe wrong, but this is what I think about that...

 

[nkbj]

About round ball being a better "man stopper", think about it.
It's just about the lightest thing you could put in a percussion revolver and it allows the largest powder charge.
That means at the usual revolver shooting distances the round ball goes faster than a longer heavier bullet that takes up a bunch of powder space.
So with no significant barrier to penetration and if there's an effective difference between a slow bullet versus a faster bullet, what's that difference going to be?

There is a detrimental characteristic of round ball that prompted the invention of penetration aids, but that's another story.

 

[Bad Karma]

About round ball being a better "man stopper", think about it.
It's just about the lightest thing you could put in a percussion revolver and it allows the largest powder charge.
That means at the usual revolver shooting distances the round ball goes faster than a longer heavier bullet that takes up a bunch of powder space.
So with no significant barrier to penetration and if there's an effective difference between a slow bullet versus a faster bullet, what's that difference going to be?

There is a detrimental characteristic of round ball that prompted the invention of penetration aids, but that's another story.

Round ball is about the least efficient projectile possible from an aerodynamic standpoint. In my opinion it’s the same inefficiency that transmits energy from that ball to the target. As you say, it’s going to be going faster than a comparable bullet at close range. Further out I suspect that difference begins to weigh in favor of the bullet…

 

[smoothshooter]

Disagree heartily. I have known shooters who were taught no wad or grease was necessary. They continued with this practice until, one day, a chain fire woke them up. In this game we are (or should be) constantly learning and evolving with our loading techniques. All within the bounds of safety.....I hope.

I am not convinced grease or wads or grease prevent chain fires.
But I DO like greased wads over the powder for keeping the fouling soft.

 

[Red Owl]

On the sprue, I was talking about the balls used at the time- 150 years ago. On whether a round ball is better than a conical- opinions vary. Gun guru Elmer Keith thought highly of the round ball. Mark Twain, when he first got to Virginia City, said some guy was shot six times with a Colt Navy and lived- all the shots in the arms, legs, etc. A lot of people back in the day took a head shot. You see photos of corpses with bullet holes in the head.

 

[Zulch]

I think only 6 extra rounds were carried in the cartridge box , but I'm sure Officers and other guys carried extra packs in their saddle bags or haversacks.

It seems like the popular opinion is that conical bullets in the revolvers were thought to have better stopping power and they were easier to make cartridges out of.

The Walker was loaded with a flask and loose picket bullets and also the Dragoon in the 1840s. There were also non-combustible cartridges in the 1840s-50s that were basically smaller versions of a musket or rifle cartridge, they were bit open, powder poured in and the bullet removed. A while back I saw a whole article on these.

I'm sure the Eras Gone gentleman knows way more about this stuff

Stantheman86, Great topic. A military historian that I know recently shared some information with me regarding pickets etc that I was not aware of. Maybe you have read this and others too. If so, please disregard. Just thought I would hang the pdf article for those that may have not read before. Very good reading to me. Thank you, Z

 

[bang]

Wads in a revolver is just more to carry and keep up with. Bees wax concoction over the ball to lower leading of the barrel.

 

[maillemaker]

Stantheman86, Great topic. A military historian that I know recently shared some information with me regarding pickets etc that I was not aware of. Maybe you have read this and others too. If so, please disregard. Just thought I would hang the pdf article for those that may have not read before. Very good reading to me. Thank you, Z

Nice PDF! The 4-volume series "Round Ball to Rimfire" is also an excellent resource for learning about the evolution of black powder ammunition, including pistol ammunition.

 

[nkbj]

Stantheman86, Great topic. A military historian that I know recently shared some information with me regarding pickets etc that I was not aware of. Maybe you have read this and others too. If so, please disregard. Just thought I would hang the pdf article for those that may have not read before. Very good reading to me. Thank you, Z

Nice download. Thanks.