Well I finally snapped off one of my lock screws. The builder of this rifle reduced the middle section of the front lock screw to allow the ramrod to pass by it so there is enough room for the length of the 42 inch rod. The 3/32" screw has about half of it's diameter gone for about a half inch in the middle of the lock screw. Is this normal for this when building Penn rifles? I bought two more screws to make a replacement. I guess I will chuck the screw up in a drill press and go to it with a file. Any ideas?
-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Lock screw issue
- Thread starter JJB22
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 15,602
- Reaction score
- 19
You will find that often on many old and new guns. Theres just not enough space sometimes to work with when building one of these slender guns. So yes that can be a normal thing.
Just remove the ramrod before the screw.
Just remove the ramrod before the screw.
yes it happens occasionally. Rather than reduce the bolt dia. uniformly around its circumference, as I think I understand your plan, you might want to: put the bolts in w/o the RR, snug them as you normally would, mark the side of the forward bolt which points to or interferes w/the RR hole, locate where it is exposed in the hole, then file just that side w/an appropriate rat-tail file until the RR fully seats. Maybe this way would keep some extra thickness in the bolt. If the RR is full dia. its whole length, you can taper that portion which goes in the hole, gaining a little more clearance (or make a new one tapered).
Yea, That sounds like a plan. I can put some prussian blue on the tip of the RR and send it in to hit the lock screw and file where needed. I guess this "interference" will keep the rod in the gun unlike one of my other smoke poles. I ended up heat warping the rod a little to keep it from falling out when hunting in my tree stand. :grin:
I did this on my first build. I put an index mark on the screw head that I know has to point straight down or the screw will not be in the proper position to allow the ramrod past. Once I located which part of the screw was in the RR channel I used my rat tail file and filed a groove out, compared it to the ramrod to see if it was wide enought then replace the lock screw in the gun and by trial and error got the proper depth for the groove. Took all of 20 minutes... the second time. My lock was stripped and I ended up cutting the groove into the wrong screw because I didn't realize that my top screw was a different length then my front screw...
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 15,602
- Reaction score
- 19
That sneaky lil Roy :wink: had to put a lil notch in the front screw of my .58, the gun you see in my Signature pic. It's no biggy and I find myself removing the ramrod before taking the lock off whithout even thinking about it.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
" A Bit Much " is a gross understatement, if you managed to break the screw! :shocked2: :surrender:
Use WITNESS marks on all screw heads, to tell you when they have been turned in enough. Treat all the screws on a lock as if you are working on a fine Swiss watch.
Yes, its quite normal for the shank of these bolts to be reduces on the forward bolt to allow clearance for the Ramrod. You have learned a valuable lesson the hard way. Making a replacement bolt using a drill press and files will teach you the value of those bolts, so you won't repeat the mistake.
The single biggest, and most common problem we see with MLers is the propensity to crank those screws down too much. Guns start shooting every which way, when they used to be tack drivers, because someone has to Crank that tang screw or bolt in another turn! Hammers no longer hit the Nipple squarely because someone has cranked that rear, upper lock bolt in a couple of more turns, crushing the wood in the lock mortise, or warping the lockplate, and bending the lockplate over so that the hammer no longer works correctly. OR, Pinches the stock into the lock so that the sear no long goes into either the half cock, or on other guns, into the full cock notch of the Tumbler.
I dealt with one gun where the lockbolt was turned so many times, it stopped the cock from falling, by physically interfering with the forward movement of the cock. The owner damaged a lot of wood in the lock mortise, and we had to make shims to glue in the mortise to help hold the lock plate back in its normal position.
When you remove any bolt or screw, COUNT the turns of the screwdriver as you back the item out. Make a note someplace. That should be the same number of turns you use when putting the screw or bolt back into the stock.
A witness mark is nothing more than a mark on the bolt or screw head- often down in the slot--- and a corresponding mark on the sideplate, or metal that is adjacent to the bolt head. If no metal bushing, then make the mark in the wood finish. In the finer made locks and rifles, gun makers align the slot on the tang screws with the length of the barrel. Some rifles will also have the slots in the lock bolts aligned with the length of the barrel. The same is done with slots in screws that hold the furniture to the stock, such as the butt and toe plates, brass patchbox, escutcheons, etc. The consistency in the alignment of the screw slots is seen as a refinement that indicates the care that went into making the rifle, or shotgun.
If you are not shooting your gun over the winter time, and are storing it inside your home, you should remember that the house hold humidity will be rather low, and that will cause stocks to shrink over several weeks or month. Then, in the Spring, when windows are opened, and relative humidity rises, the stocks swell again. Its routine for Target shooters, who own expensive rifles, to loosen the screws on their guns that hold the barrel, and lock in place, to allow movement of the wood during the dry winter period, so that there are no splits in the stock when they pick it up again the next spring. This is an idea that can also help protect a fine Mler( Or any rifle or shotgun), too. :hmm: :thumbsup:
Use WITNESS marks on all screw heads, to tell you when they have been turned in enough. Treat all the screws on a lock as if you are working on a fine Swiss watch.
Yes, its quite normal for the shank of these bolts to be reduces on the forward bolt to allow clearance for the Ramrod. You have learned a valuable lesson the hard way. Making a replacement bolt using a drill press and files will teach you the value of those bolts, so you won't repeat the mistake.
The single biggest, and most common problem we see with MLers is the propensity to crank those screws down too much. Guns start shooting every which way, when they used to be tack drivers, because someone has to Crank that tang screw or bolt in another turn! Hammers no longer hit the Nipple squarely because someone has cranked that rear, upper lock bolt in a couple of more turns, crushing the wood in the lock mortise, or warping the lockplate, and bending the lockplate over so that the hammer no longer works correctly. OR, Pinches the stock into the lock so that the sear no long goes into either the half cock, or on other guns, into the full cock notch of the Tumbler.
I dealt with one gun where the lockbolt was turned so many times, it stopped the cock from falling, by physically interfering with the forward movement of the cock. The owner damaged a lot of wood in the lock mortise, and we had to make shims to glue in the mortise to help hold the lock plate back in its normal position.
When you remove any bolt or screw, COUNT the turns of the screwdriver as you back the item out. Make a note someplace. That should be the same number of turns you use when putting the screw or bolt back into the stock.
A witness mark is nothing more than a mark on the bolt or screw head- often down in the slot--- and a corresponding mark on the sideplate, or metal that is adjacent to the bolt head. If no metal bushing, then make the mark in the wood finish. In the finer made locks and rifles, gun makers align the slot on the tang screws with the length of the barrel. Some rifles will also have the slots in the lock bolts aligned with the length of the barrel. The same is done with slots in screws that hold the furniture to the stock, such as the butt and toe plates, brass patchbox, escutcheons, etc. The consistency in the alignment of the screw slots is seen as a refinement that indicates the care that went into making the rifle, or shotgun.
If you are not shooting your gun over the winter time, and are storing it inside your home, you should remember that the house hold humidity will be rather low, and that will cause stocks to shrink over several weeks or month. Then, in the Spring, when windows are opened, and relative humidity rises, the stocks swell again. Its routine for Target shooters, who own expensive rifles, to loosen the screws on their guns that hold the barrel, and lock in place, to allow movement of the wood during the dry winter period, so that there are no splits in the stock when they pick it up again the next spring. This is an idea that can also help protect a fine Mler( Or any rifle or shotgun), too. :hmm: :thumbsup:
That is a lot of great info paulvallandigham-- let me see if I can explain myself. The builder of this rifle removed metal from the center of the screw as follows: screw thickness= .185 center diameter after metal removal .089 Less than half of the original thickness. I received two screws in the mail last night screwed the new one in, marked it's position, removed, filed off one side of the screw only, replaced screw, tested, repeated process till done. Results: I have a screw that measures .140 at its thinnest point which maintains the screws integrity.
As for marking, screw out 4 turns--back in 4 turn---- I have over 20 years of gunsmith experience (I admit, mostly with smokeless firearms) so I am familiar with proper torque with all types of screws, bolt, retainers, etc. I have smoothed and lighted the actions of more than 50 of my personal firearms and countless others members guns so I am know about match-marking parts and fasteners .
Yes I am fairly new to the "custom built" muzzle loading firearms so I just thought it to be odd that more than half of a screw's diameter was ground off of my rifle to provide relief for the ramrod. I understand more and more about these rifles each day by mostly reading posts from all of you kind enough to share your insight and knowledge.
As for humidity- My home is 72 degrees year round so shrinkage and expansion is at a minimum. I don't shoot in the rain/snow so quick absorption of moisture will not happen with this particular rifle.
I am writing this for information, I am not mad; I’m really not, I just wanted to let folks know””don’t let my pilgrim status fool you. I have been around guns for 40 plus years, spent many years working on them, many hours improving them, many years shooting them, and many hours repairing other peoples foul-ups. I am at a point of my life that the simpler thing in life, getting back to our roots, challenging myself to new things, are more appreciated nowadays than ever.
Thanks to all for the information and feedback. Jim
As for marking, screw out 4 turns--back in 4 turn---- I have over 20 years of gunsmith experience (I admit, mostly with smokeless firearms) so I am familiar with proper torque with all types of screws, bolt, retainers, etc. I have smoothed and lighted the actions of more than 50 of my personal firearms and countless others members guns so I am know about match-marking parts and fasteners .
Yes I am fairly new to the "custom built" muzzle loading firearms so I just thought it to be odd that more than half of a screw's diameter was ground off of my rifle to provide relief for the ramrod. I understand more and more about these rifles each day by mostly reading posts from all of you kind enough to share your insight and knowledge.
As for humidity- My home is 72 degrees year round so shrinkage and expansion is at a minimum. I don't shoot in the rain/snow so quick absorption of moisture will not happen with this particular rifle.
I am writing this for information, I am not mad; I’m really not, I just wanted to let folks know””don’t let my pilgrim status fool you. I have been around guns for 40 plus years, spent many years working on them, many hours improving them, many years shooting them, and many hours repairing other peoples foul-ups. I am at a point of my life that the simpler thing in life, getting back to our roots, challenging myself to new things, are more appreciated nowadays than ever.
Thanks to all for the information and feedback. Jim
JJB22 said:
Yup, traditional muzzleloading will fill that bill just right :thumbsup: just plain downright satisfyin' :wink:
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
Glad to know your background. And to have you on the forum. I was not patronizing you in any way. When I am responding to a new member to the forum, I first click on his name to read his biographical info posted here. Unfortunately, many people simply do not provide any real information.
Some questions suggest a Newbie , by the very nature of the question. Not knowing that forward lock bolts are often ground down to give clearance to the Ramrod is one such question. Fitting a ramrod to a stock is a RPITA! for those of us who have struggled with them.
I had a semi-custom rifle made for me, and the ramrod would stick in the stock all the time. There were other things wrong with the work, and the lock in particular, so I found a member of my gun club who was an experienced builder, and he "fixed" several items, returning a gun that would now fire reliably.
One of the things he did was to use a different bolt in the forward part of the lock, and he also had to taper the back end of the ramrod to fit the end of the rod Under the bolt! Even with the bolt ground down, there still was not enough room to fit that ramrod in the stock, and under that bolt, until he tapered the rod. I still have and shoot the rifle, and I have the same hickory ramrod that he fixed for me almost 30 years ago.
Its not unusual for such bolts to be weakened so that it does not take much extra force to break them at the weak point. My best suggestion to you, and others who read this, is to treat screws on guns like you are working on a fine Swiss watch. I learned this working first on my modern rifles, shotguns, and handguns.
Some questions suggest a Newbie , by the very nature of the question. Not knowing that forward lock bolts are often ground down to give clearance to the Ramrod is one such question. Fitting a ramrod to a stock is a RPITA! for those of us who have struggled with them.
I had a semi-custom rifle made for me, and the ramrod would stick in the stock all the time. There were other things wrong with the work, and the lock in particular, so I found a member of my gun club who was an experienced builder, and he "fixed" several items, returning a gun that would now fire reliably.
One of the things he did was to use a different bolt in the forward part of the lock, and he also had to taper the back end of the ramrod to fit the end of the rod Under the bolt! Even with the bolt ground down, there still was not enough room to fit that ramrod in the stock, and under that bolt, until he tapered the rod. I still have and shoot the rifle, and I have the same hickory ramrod that he fixed for me almost 30 years ago.
Its not unusual for such bolts to be weakened so that it does not take much extra force to break them at the weak point. My best suggestion to you, and others who read this, is to treat screws on guns like you are working on a fine Swiss watch. I learned this working first on my modern rifles, shotguns, and handguns.
All good, I love finding out new quirks about guns so the broken narrowed screw and fashioning a new one gave me a few hours in the shop to tinker while the old dog kept me company. I am getting things ready for a trip to the range tomorrow. Deer season is coming soon so I have to get everything in order. I need to dust off my 58 cal mountain gun (cap) and shoot a few chunks of lead through it. Happy shooting folks.
It sounds like you have things well in hand now. I was going to suggest....some makers do not put a forward lock bolt in, but rather, a wood screw with the head fashioned to match the rear bolt. I have 2 such rifles, the locks do not even have the forward hole drilled/tapped.
Similar threads
