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Made in India?
- Thread starter opusnight
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762subsonic
32 Cal.
Jethro224 said:
agreed!
As someone who has been through this whole thing...let me share my experience. I was wanting to get my first smoothbore flinter and asked this same question several months ago. I was "convinced" the India guns were junk and I should buy a parts kit and put it together for the same price and have a much better quality gun. I purchased a parts kit for $740 and have spent the last four months struggling to put it together. Since I have never built a gun before the process has been frustrating to put it VERY mildly. My inletting looks like manure and trying to get everything to fit properly has made me just want to give up. I'm going to end up with a gun that looks like manure and costs $740 and worth MAYBE $500. I have seen and held an india gun and the finish and fit is far superior to what I've done. I'm almost tempted to sell this parts kit at a loss and buy the India gun I originally wanted. All I wanted was a good fowling gun to hunt and trek with. :2
The question is this:
Do the Indian made guns have proof marks from the Govt' proof house? All FIREARMS sold in India are required to be proved by the proof house.
If they are made as non-firing replicas I suppose that proof is not needed.
My question would then be who makes them into firearms?
http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india/laws/rules/rule_25_31.html
Do the Indian made guns have proof marks from the Govt' proof house? All FIREARMS sold in India are required to be proved by the proof house.
If they are made as non-firing replicas I suppose that proof is not needed.
My question would then be who makes them into firearms?
http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india/laws/rules/rule_25_31.html
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762subsonic
32 Cal.
On the India musket I own it came with instructions to proof it yourself. The statement about getting what you pay for couldn't be more true in this case. When I compare it to my NSW Officers musket the quality is pale in comparison.
Vtsmoker said:
Then you have to spend the money for a GOOD gun. There are NO "good" cheap MLs.
But of course one man's good is another man's pipe bomb.
Here is a little factoid. Wishing or even believing a low priced firearm to be good will not make it so.
It is impossible to compare low cost modern firearms to MLs and assume any equality in safety.
Low cost modern arms are generally not low cost due to short cuts in barrel steels but in the manufacturing process. The Ruger MK 1 22 pistol is a good example. Now "plastic" frames are becoming popular. Stamped steel parts and plastic can be use with no detriment in safety of the parts that contain the pressure are properly designed and made from the proper material.
Modern BL firearms invariably are used with factory ammo. If the firearm fails with FACTORY AMMO the maker gets sued and it WILL stick. While it is possible to successfully make low pressure handgun barrel (like standard 38 special and 45 ACP) from common mild steels if the steel is of high quality and hot rolled, it is also possible to make these same parts from BRITTLE steel and have them fail. The 1911 Colt design is a wonderful example. If you over pressure a 45ACP 1911 the brass cartridge case will fail at the feed ramp in the barrel. The brass blows out. Even a quality, hot rolled 1010-1020 steel will not fail at this pressure. However, if the barrel is made of an UNSUITABLE steel like most of the stainless used for modern gun barrels the BARREL can and has failed. A number of barrels by a well known aftermarket 1911 barrel maker failed in this manner.
The same thing has occurred in stainless CF rifles. SAKO had a major recall when a number of rifles failed with FACTORY AMMO both here and in Europe. A few shooters were mangled. I have no idea what the cost was.
"Bad lot of steel". Sure but from the standpoint of firearms ALL 416 stainless is bad... Remington was sued a few years back when lower cost 1140M steel was used in shotgun barrels and some failed when the steel in these thin wall barrels WORK HARDENED became brittle. Personal injury AND class action "loss of value" suits were ALL lost by Remington.
MLs are ALL hand loaded. This is the safety valve for the maker. The makers can make barrels, for example, from material no conscientious maker would use and quite a few do. But since they have the "handloader" defense they are actually pretty safe. One now MAJOR maker of firearms in the US was saved when in first started out by the handloader defense and at by junk science that "proved" smokeless powder had been used in the ML. While the science was VALID the fact that BLACKPOWDER would produce the SAME RESULT was not picked up on by the plaintiffs lawyers. (A chemist friend used to process and got the smokeless result with powder from a previously unopened can of GOI/Goex).
So they got away with it.
But its also pretty obvious that they then changed barrel steels. But of course they could not admit this or they would be admitting liability...
One more thing it is impossible to proof test low quality barrel steel or barrel steels/barrels that are made by certain processes. It only proves it did not fail at that time.
If the BUYER drills the vent in a FL arm? Then the seller is completely off the hook since he sold a "non-firearm" not intended to be shot.
Dan
The reason that they are sold with the touch hole not drilled, is because they are shipped to all parts of the world. And the firearms laws are different in all parts of the world. Without the touch holes being drilled they can more often than not be sent to those country's because they are not considered "fire arms" and can be imported. If they had the touch holes drilled, they would be proofed, but then in some countrys they would not be allowed in.
I understand the safty concerns with these weapons I really do. However, if these weapons were blowing up in peoples faces one would think:
A: there would be warnings all over the place about them (DANGER DANGER...DO NOT BUY THESE GUNS)
B: These companies selling these as functioning weapons have been in business for a long time. One would think their business would dry up if the weapons they were selling were hurting or killing people.
C: If these weapons being sold as funtioning units were hurting or killing people, wouldn't US Customs, Atorny General, or even BATF investigate and shut down these companies. I realize they don't fall under firearm status for the BATF but if they are more "pipe bomb" than muzzle loader one would think the BATF would step in and call them "explosive devices" to prevent them from being sold. :idunno:
A: there would be warnings all over the place about them (DANGER DANGER...DO NOT BUY THESE GUNS)
B: These companies selling these as functioning weapons have been in business for a long time. One would think their business would dry up if the weapons they were selling were hurting or killing people.
C: If these weapons being sold as funtioning units were hurting or killing people, wouldn't US Customs, Atorny General, or even BATF investigate and shut down these companies. I realize they don't fall under firearm status for the BATF but if they are more "pipe bomb" than muzzle loader one would think the BATF would step in and call them "explosive devices" to prevent them from being sold. :idunno:
Karl Helweg
40 Cal.
- Joined
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I do own a couple Indian made muzzle loaders: a wheellock and a blunderbuss. I am very pleased with them overall and have had good dealings with http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/ but I have heard good things about Royalist Arms too. I like tinkering and refinishing and as one person phrased it to me these Indian guns are "assembled kits." I primarily used them in reenactments but I do shoot live ammo more now.
I have stripped and oiled the surprisingly nice wood, polished the metal, hardened the frizzen, added a saddle ring, drilled touch holes, changed out steel for brass screws, and brazed up a sear. These might not be the best guns for a brand new shooter. The barrels are certainly heavy and safe. They are a great deal for an experienced shooter who would pay the higher price for a "novelty" gun from someone else.
I have stripped and oiled the surprisingly nice wood, polished the metal, hardened the frizzen, added a saddle ring, drilled touch holes, changed out steel for brass screws, and brazed up a sear. These might not be the best guns for a brand new shooter. The barrels are certainly heavy and safe. They are a great deal for an experienced shooter who would pay the higher price for a "novelty" gun from someone else.
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A couple of days ago there were 9 different smoothbores on the various forum classifieds and trade blankets priced from $250 (renagade .56) to $925 all looked like well made guns, all from American parts. There are some good buys out there on domestic made used guns. The fact is that some will never accept the Indian guns and others will always think they are good guns.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
tiger13 said:
The above is as good an excuse as any I suppose for making what the Indian government calls imitation guns. However, why not drill the touch hole and proof the ones coming to this country and save the imitation guns for the ones that won't allow it? That way, you have the best of both worlds. Of course the costs would go up here since then they would be considered by the Indian government to be real guns instead of imitation guns and would require much more regulation. Could it be because the importers' profits will go down due to the cost rise passed on to their customers? :idunno:
(I didn't want to join this discussion because there is no convincing some people but... Here I go wasting my time and yours.)
I suppose the cost would go up. And there would still be the ones that would bash them as junk, even when they would pass the proof tests. This discussion is an endless loop, there are those in this forum that just refuse to acknowledge that there is a place for an inexpensive gun, and that some people do not always care that the piece is not historically correct down to the last detail. They just want to burn powder and have fun. Is that not what we all want to do?
Think about it, when Thompson Center first came out, they were considered junk, same as CVA, now every body talks good about Thompson... And Pedersoli, are they still not an IMPORTED gun? how many American jobs are they supporting? Maybe not as many as MVTC, or some of the other importers, or for that matter, the guys on here that say they are always fixing these so called abominations. Add to that, Pedersoli does not make a first model Bess, and the Indian imports do, and that helps the reenactors who portray the F/I war. Maybe Pedersoli should step up and either lower their price to tap the market, that certainly exists, because the Indian muskets are doing it. Again, VA, I am not flaming you, I respect your posts on here very much, and as I said, this is turning into an endless loop. But consider what I have posted with an open mind.
Think about it, when Thompson Center first came out, they were considered junk, same as CVA, now every body talks good about Thompson... And Pedersoli, are they still not an IMPORTED gun? how many American jobs are they supporting? Maybe not as many as MVTC, or some of the other importers, or for that matter, the guys on here that say they are always fixing these so called abominations. Add to that, Pedersoli does not make a first model Bess, and the Indian imports do, and that helps the reenactors who portray the F/I war. Maybe Pedersoli should step up and either lower their price to tap the market, that certainly exists, because the Indian muskets are doing it. Again, VA, I am not flaming you, I respect your posts on here very much, and as I said, this is turning into an endless loop. But consider what I have posted with an open mind.
OK according to Canadian Law if they ship an entirely assembled musket to you with a touch hole drilled, they must claim it is a "firearm" and you must go to the customs office (usually at the international airport) and pay the importation fee. They can, however ship a fully functioning musket to you, with the lock shipped in a different box, as "gun parts" and you then place the lock into the stock and tighten the screws.
FYI there are NO CIP proof houses in Canada, India, or the United States, and the muskets from Loyalist Arms, MVTC, and Veteran Arms come with touch holes drilled.
Before the feds ever got involved, I'd say Civil Court Actions against any of the three importers mentioned above would close down those companies if there were a series of accidents with the Indian origin gun barrels. Good luck with a lawsuit against Pedersoli in Italy folks. :wink:
You can always detach your gun barrel and ship it to Birmingham if you want it proofed.
As for gun accidents, here are four, and two of which are known to have happened due to the wrong powder. So far the inline safety record as far as the number of accidents is far greater than anything coming out of India. The last example was of a modern inline that could use both BP and smokeless. While the first example isn't a "barrel failure" we should remember you can't fix stupid even with proofing of barrels folks.
Inline Powder Accident
Modern Inline Explodes
Inline Exploded Powder Error
Another Inline Fails Due to Powder Error(Graphic)
FYI there are NO CIP proof houses in Canada, India, or the United States, and the muskets from Loyalist Arms, MVTC, and Veteran Arms come with touch holes drilled.
Before the feds ever got involved, I'd say Civil Court Actions against any of the three importers mentioned above would close down those companies if there were a series of accidents with the Indian origin gun barrels. Good luck with a lawsuit against Pedersoli in Italy folks. :wink:
You can always detach your gun barrel and ship it to Birmingham if you want it proofed.
As for gun accidents, here are four, and two of which are known to have happened due to the wrong powder. So far the inline safety record as far as the number of accidents is far greater than anything coming out of India. The last example was of a modern inline that could use both BP and smokeless. While the first example isn't a "barrel failure" we should remember you can't fix stupid even with proofing of barrels folks.
Inline Powder Accident
Modern Inline Explodes
Inline Exploded Powder Error
Another Inline Fails Due to Powder Error(Graphic)
Billnpatti
Cannon
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2008
- Messages
- 7,340
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Lots of opinions and here is mine. If you want to use it just for reinacting, it is okay but if you want a shooter, you would be better off buying an Italian or American made gun. safety doesn't seem to be the issue with Indian made guns, it is just the quality and the fact that everyone I have looked at has had a two finger trigger pull. You can find much better guns for your money for sale here on the forum.
Not everyone thinks TC guns are great guns today, mnay feel they paved the way for a wannabe gun type/style which could have been very authentic guns at little or no extra cost, as for the Indian guns no one can stop anyone from buying them they are just suggesting that folks do a lot of home work and make an educated choice and consider how close in cost they really are to a well made domestic gun. If you own one and find it suits your need fine but stand aside and let the new buyers see/study all the aspects and decide if the price tag will be the only decideing factor in purchasing a gun.This endless loop is pretty much sustained by those trying to justify their choices and no one really cares what they bought or use and often the passion of the posts causes one to wonder who they are trying to convince how good these guns are, new buyers or themselves.
well after many months of research back in 2005 I bought my frist of three repoduction which were made in India. It is true what you say you get what you pay, but at the time I did not have much choice just starting out as I was. I have shot live rounds though them It is also true the trigger pull is a little on the heavy side and the wood and finish wasn't exactly what I had hope but with a little elbow grease and effort this can be fixed to some extent (all three) shoot well and I enjoy shooting them. My advice is to look around at all the sight before you buy anything.Find a Dealer who will answer all your questions, who is willing to gartee his/hers product and also has return policy if you are not happy with your purchase.
- Joined
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- 231
- Reaction score
- 8
I swore I wouldn't wade back in on this one, but I got tired of hanging out on The Fishing Forum. Has anyone noticed that Opusnight has not re-joined the debate for 6 days, but still we continue...
Seriously, I realize I shouldn't have suggested that a fellow muzzleloader take up fishing instead of buying an Indian made gun, even is that statement was made tongue-in-cheek. I took some heat for that statement, and I probably deserved it. Personal attacks aside!
The bottom line is...everyone has their OWN opinions and comfort levels with the weapons they choose. As long as it is a muzzleloader of some type, I can respect their effort. There are safety issues, which have been well debated here, and those should be considered. But, if one is comfortable shooting a weapon that was shipped into our country as a non-firing replica, then fire away. Any lawsuits arising from such activity will, most likely, be quickly dismissed and our Justice System will not be further overburdened. Besides, I haven’t seen any proof marks on my Green Mountain or Rice barrels, so who knows, maybe all barrels are equal in quality.
I also know that most folks cannot afford a Frank House rifle, and if I had one I would be scared to carry it into the field. (Since building Mel Gibson's gun Frank’s prices have soared into the thousands!) On the other hand, that does not necessarily mean one should head to the far end of the spectrum in the opposite direction.
In the end, most of us will use that which is most accepted by our immediate peers. I have the good fortune to hunt, shoot, trek, and camp with a number of wonderfully gifted muzzleloaders; including a CLA Founder, the Fort Boonesboro Gunsmith, members of The Kentucky Rifle Corps, and several quality builders. Tough competition to say the least! And although the custom Virginia rifle I carry is nice, it does not compare to some of the wonderful artwork these guys drag out at every event. By their mere presence, I am constantly challenged to refine my skills and equipment. Trying to reach new levels in this sport is what keeps me interested. I understand this may not be the case for all, but it lets you know where I am coming from. My opinions offered on this forum are also greatly influenced by the collective wisdom of these men.
At our monthly shoots, Newbies are always welcomed by the aforementioned crew, whether they show up with custom rifles or Indian guns. Just as I did, most new shooters begin wanting a nicer gun by their second shoot. This has nothing to do with any mockery or snobbery; there simply is no comparison between a cheap gun and a well-made custom rifle, and even most novice shooters can tell the difference. I don't care how many cheap guns you own and shoot, I will stand by this statement until the temperature drops in Hades. Just as I believe the drive to work would always be better in a Lamborghini than in a Yugo. And, I don't think I have to own a Yugo to make this statement; although the honest owner of the Yugo could certainly make it more forcefully. Other people who could offer an opinion on the matter would be a mechanic and a car dealer. Either could say, “I’ve never personally owned a Yugo, but I have had a few in my shop”. Most of us would trust that opinion, and while we might not make a down-payment on a Lambo, we probably would not push the Yugo home either.
As the only Gun Dealer of my crew, I am usually tasked with helping new shooters get rid of their starter guns. Sometimes it is an easy task, other times it is not. There seems to always be a solid market for old CVA Kentuckies, TC’s and similar offerings regardless of their condition. I have not found the same to be true for Indian guns, but with the interest exhibited here I will certainly use the classified section of THIS forum for all future offerings.
So, if all your buddies are shooting Indian Guns or you are re-enacting, I think they will probably work just fine. If you want to get into muzzleloading and an Indian gun is all you can find ”“ BUY IT! If it works great, you will make lots of smoke and great memories. If it doesn’t, you will have made your own decision and will know the proper direction for the future. I love this sport, and contrary to my comedic fishing comment, I go to great lengths to welcome newcomers. If a gun will work well enough to propel your charge and load downrange it will, if nothing else, be a great starting point into a wonderful journey. Enjoy!
Seriously, I realize I shouldn't have suggested that a fellow muzzleloader take up fishing instead of buying an Indian made gun, even is that statement was made tongue-in-cheek. I took some heat for that statement, and I probably deserved it. Personal attacks aside!
The bottom line is...everyone has their OWN opinions and comfort levels with the weapons they choose. As long as it is a muzzleloader of some type, I can respect their effort. There are safety issues, which have been well debated here, and those should be considered. But, if one is comfortable shooting a weapon that was shipped into our country as a non-firing replica, then fire away. Any lawsuits arising from such activity will, most likely, be quickly dismissed and our Justice System will not be further overburdened. Besides, I haven’t seen any proof marks on my Green Mountain or Rice barrels, so who knows, maybe all barrels are equal in quality.
I also know that most folks cannot afford a Frank House rifle, and if I had one I would be scared to carry it into the field. (Since building Mel Gibson's gun Frank’s prices have soared into the thousands!) On the other hand, that does not necessarily mean one should head to the far end of the spectrum in the opposite direction.
In the end, most of us will use that which is most accepted by our immediate peers. I have the good fortune to hunt, shoot, trek, and camp with a number of wonderfully gifted muzzleloaders; including a CLA Founder, the Fort Boonesboro Gunsmith, members of The Kentucky Rifle Corps, and several quality builders. Tough competition to say the least! And although the custom Virginia rifle I carry is nice, it does not compare to some of the wonderful artwork these guys drag out at every event. By their mere presence, I am constantly challenged to refine my skills and equipment. Trying to reach new levels in this sport is what keeps me interested. I understand this may not be the case for all, but it lets you know where I am coming from. My opinions offered on this forum are also greatly influenced by the collective wisdom of these men.
At our monthly shoots, Newbies are always welcomed by the aforementioned crew, whether they show up with custom rifles or Indian guns. Just as I did, most new shooters begin wanting a nicer gun by their second shoot. This has nothing to do with any mockery or snobbery; there simply is no comparison between a cheap gun and a well-made custom rifle, and even most novice shooters can tell the difference. I don't care how many cheap guns you own and shoot, I will stand by this statement until the temperature drops in Hades. Just as I believe the drive to work would always be better in a Lamborghini than in a Yugo. And, I don't think I have to own a Yugo to make this statement; although the honest owner of the Yugo could certainly make it more forcefully. Other people who could offer an opinion on the matter would be a mechanic and a car dealer. Either could say, “I’ve never personally owned a Yugo, but I have had a few in my shop”. Most of us would trust that opinion, and while we might not make a down-payment on a Lambo, we probably would not push the Yugo home either.
As the only Gun Dealer of my crew, I am usually tasked with helping new shooters get rid of their starter guns. Sometimes it is an easy task, other times it is not. There seems to always be a solid market for old CVA Kentuckies, TC’s and similar offerings regardless of their condition. I have not found the same to be true for Indian guns, but with the interest exhibited here I will certainly use the classified section of THIS forum for all future offerings.
So, if all your buddies are shooting Indian Guns or you are re-enacting, I think they will probably work just fine. If you want to get into muzzleloading and an Indian gun is all you can find ”“ BUY IT! If it works great, you will make lots of smoke and great memories. If it doesn’t, you will have made your own decision and will know the proper direction for the future. I love this sport, and contrary to my comedic fishing comment, I go to great lengths to welcome newcomers. If a gun will work well enough to propel your charge and load downrange it will, if nothing else, be a great starting point into a wonderful journey. Enjoy!
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