Maximum Range Flintlock

[Rifleman1776]

jack rabbit hunting with a rifle

:shocked2:
Did he get anything? :rotf:

 

[jerrywh]

Last year I won the long gong shoot ot the Oregon Seneca rendezvous with my 58 cal. 1"66 twist, 32" barrel, 120 grs. ffg with a buffer wad and a patched round ball. I hit the gong at 287yds 2 out of three shots. The range was checked with a lazer range finder after the shoot. I killed a deer two years ago at 135yds through the heart. With my 54. This is sage brush country like Montana.

 

[nkbj]

jack rabbit hunting with a rifle

:shocked2:
Did he get anything? :rotf:

Just more jack rabbits! :blah:

 

[Dphar]

Last year I won the long gong shoot ot the Oregon Seneca rendezvous with my 58 cal. 1"66 twist, 32" barrel, 120 grs. ffg with a buffer wad and a patched round ball. I hit the gong at 287yds 2 out of three shots. The range was checked with a lazer range finder after the shoot. I killed a deer two years ago at 135yds through the heart. With my 54. This is sage brush country like Montana.

I have killed deer and antelope to 150 or so with a RB and they will shoot fairly accurately at longer distances. But my eye is not what it used to be. Wind is also an issue were I live. It does some really amazing things some times.

A friend who is far better than I (he also has 20/15 vision) shot an Antelope at 238 yards with a 54 a couple of years ago. This is the result of the "long range hunting" craze and the antelope in his area now hang out in areas where getting close is just impossible sometimes having 1/2 3/4 mile to cross with no cover. Comes from idiots shooting them at 800-1000 yards. With 8x vision you need some cover to get close them.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Well, since you didn't specify "round ball" and you want max distance, I wouldn't use a PRB anyhow.

This is something I'm actually considering building (someday) -

Caliber of barrel? 45 cal
Rifling pattern? square rifled .004" deep
Rate of twist? 1:28
Length of barrel? 46" B weight swamped, cut to 44" so I would have a 2" piece for engraving bullets (.458 350 grain)
Pan and flash hole? pan - unmodified on a Chambers Late Ketland - flash hole 5/16"
Ignition channel (breech) design? Hawken style flint patent breech (plug welded to the tang so it's no longer "hooked") - only build with patent breeches - personal rule - chamber drilled out to .38" - face/chamber/channel polished)
Stock configuration? Hawken or Leman full-stock - something with some "meat" to it
Trigger design? single set Kentuckee (MBS)
Style of sights? front - globe, rear - Creedmore

There really is no such thing as a practical long range hunting ML all BS aside. Not with the reliability that modern hunters want. This is also why there never was a successful bulleted ML back in the day. The British played around with bullets in MLs probably from the beginning of the percussion era onward. But as Baker, Greener and Forsythe pointed out it was invariably a waste of time. Forsythe was especially lucid in this matter.
Moderns keep reinventing this idea trying to make a better ML hunting rifle. So we end up with people overdriving saboted pistol bullets with semi-smokeless or even smokeless powder in inlines and high powered scopes etc to get 200 yards of range. Its not a ML except in the loosest interpretation. Kinda like compound bows. It shoots arrows but hunting with one is not like what Howard Hill and Fred Bear did.
Others shoot bullets in traditional MLs even though they are not traditional. If you say "these were not used" they get on their "they work really good" horse.
Having shot quite a number of various sized critters with various BPCR calibers with bullets virtually identical to what they shoot (though generally of better design having learned some things about shooting game with bullets at BP velocities) from their MLs I can assure you that while under ideal conditions they will extend the range, without a range finder they are not that useful and if the wind is blowing the problems increase. In the end within its range a RB of similar weight will perform as well an usually better something that while true the bullet shooters will nit believe. But past 150 yards the bullet has advantages. But once past this distance the average ML hunter is little better off than if he had a RB.
People want to hunt elk with a deer rifle caliber so they have to use a bullet. I would rather shoot a PRB of the proper caliber. Its effective and far less likely to ring or otherwise damage the barrel. If I need to shoot past RB ranges I use a different rifle with lots more range I don't bother with BPCR anymore for hunting unless I happen to feel like it. But I still really need a range finder and a card taped to the stock with ranges and elevations or an app for a "personal electronic device" with the bullet and velocity entered that will in a few seconds give a solution for elevation and wind. So a chronograph or extensive shooting is also needed to generate the needed data for the "app" or to generate the range table.
I use all these either hunting with CFs or in CF matches. The table taped to the stock is the fastest. I killed no deer at all last season with a ML. Deer population crashed and I gave it up with the FL. I still have 3-4 unfilled tags.

RB is easier. Just get within range, hold in the hair and the job is done. Don't need all that other manure.

Dan

 

[Wes/Tex]

RB is easier. Just get within range, hold in the hair and the job is done. Don't need all that other manure.
Dan

That's basically the whole thing in a nutshell. When the muzzleloading sport re-invented in the 50's & 60's we accepted the basic disadvantage of the whole system, compared to modern firearms, and sort of agreed to work within it's limitations. When working to develop a "muzzleloading season" concept we considered the possibility of hunter's using a Minie ball but considered the range limits not too badly rearranged to be of serious consideration. Those shooters were still dealing with similar limitations. We had no anticipation things would develop as they have, but I still feel the original hypothesis is valid and we should work at being better hunters, not more scientific long range missile launchers. That's where the "traditonal" part comes in.

 

[jerrywh]

Dan.
Last Dec. Me and my best buddy hunted elk for 10 days. Finally found the herd. There were about 400 of them. The closest we could get was 880 yds. no cover. If we had 8 or ten guys we could have surrounded them in a few hours. Very Frustrating. This is part of the heard. There was a lot more over the first ridge

I guess my photos are being banned for some reason. I thought the guys might like to see what that many elk looked like.

 

[nkbj]

If you were designing a flintlock rifle to take game at the maximum possible distances, pushing the envelope of your knowledge and ability, what would you have for...

Caliber of barrel? 4bore
Rifling pattern? radius
Rate of twist? 1/72
Length of barrel? at least 72 inches
Pan and flash hole?deep pan, at least 1/8 vent hole
Ignition channel (breech) design?Threaded standard breech
Stock configuration? full stock with rampart trunnions at balance point
Trigger design? high pinned
Style of sights? iron blade and notch with the assistance of a telescoped spotter in the blockhouse

Should be good for one thousand yards. Legend says Washington's Continentals had a smoothbore of similar configuration that could hit a piece of writing paper at 600 yards.

Hat's off to you. :hatsoff: I don't think I could shoot that hot loaded 4 bore accurately after that very first practice shot. I'm positive I'd never get the accuracy load figured out!

 

[azmntman]

I'm thinking LEGEND for sure. Don't know of a smooth bore or smooth-bore shooter that could hit that at 600 yds. W/O telescopic sites I for one would be hard pressed to even see it let alone hit it with a blade sight!

 

[nkbj]

Thanks for the thoughts. Getting ready to commission a barrel. While I lean towards .52 bore to be able to use off the shelf molds, .46 bore might be good for the same reason.
Then again one bugaboo I've been rolling around for a couple years is the effect of shot to shot variability induced by the size of the flash hole. Consistency in elevation will be essential to this concept and larger bore may help mollify the effect even if the rainbow of the trajectory is increased.
If anyone has experiences to relate with the GPH flinters I'd love to hear them.

 

[Toomuch51]

If you were designing a flintlock rifle to take game at the maximum possible distances, pushing the envelope of your knowledge and ability, what would you have for...

Caliber of barrel?
Rifling pattern?
Rate of twist?
Length of barrel?
Pan and flash hole?
Ignition channel (breech) design?
Stock configuration?
Trigger design?
Style of sights?

As to barrel length you will want to be at least 26" up to as much weight as you care to hold up. A longer barrel will give you more distance between front and rear sights for a finer sight radius.
With respects to all others the specifications you listed are all subject to specific purpose and game to be hunted. For all practical purpose the maximum effective range for any rifle firing a patched roundball would be up to 200yd.

Toomuch
...............
Shoot Flint

 

[nkbj]

If you were designing a flintlock rifle to take game at the maximum possible distances, pushing the envelope of your knowledge and ability, what would you have for...

Caliber of barrel?
Rifling pattern?
Rate of twist?
Length of barrel?
Pan and flash hole?
Ignition channel (breech) design?
Stock configuration?
Trigger design?
Style of sights?

As to barrel length you will want to be at least 26" up to as much weight as you care to hold up. A longer barrel will give you more distance between front and rear sights for a finer sight radius.
With respects to all others the specifications you listed are all subject to specific purpose and game to be hunted. For all practical purpose the maximum effective range for any rifle firing a patched roundball would be up to 200yd.

Toomuch
...............
Shoot Flint

Kinda lean towards a little longer but I do like the real handy .58 flinter Renegade.
I pointedly asked about "pushing the envelope of your knowledge and ability" because not only do we all have different experience and knowledge, but different marksmanship abilities based upon physical abilities, eye sight, temperament and practice. Project that into different ecologies, geographies and different game animals.
Just can't beat peoples experiences and knowledge they have gained, what they've done and how they did it.

 

[kaintuck]

I have to salt my bullets.....cause when i shoot something...it's so far away the meat spoils before I can get there....so, salt works! :stir:

 

[nkbj]

Maybe just need some more salt peter in your powder! :haha:

 

[nkbj]

In retrospect a flintlock taking advantage of the proven rifling and projectiles technology of an 1858 Enfield might have worked well.

The .52 bore flinter Renegade project ended up with 28" twist. The roof noises say the weatherman was right so perhaps it is a good day to fit one of those TC tang peeps and examine the fun box for front sight possibilities.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Hmm. @nkbj, a 9 year later later retrospective post. Was anything learned in the last 9 years?

 

[Rancocas]

Should be good for one thousand yards. Legend says Washington's Continentals had a smoothbore of similar configuration that could hit a piece of writing paper at 600 yards.

That was in reference to a "wall gun" with a bore of approximately 1 inch.

Timothy Murphy's famous shot that killed British general Fraser during the Battle of Saratoga is thought to have been about 300 yards. Phenomenal at the time. As far as I know, the caliber of Tim's long rifle is unknown to this day.

 

[Rancocas]

Hmm. @nkbj, a 9 year later later retrospective post. Was anything learned in the last 9 years?

Ah. I hadn't noticed that. !!!

 

[nkbj]

Hmm. @nkbj, a 9 year later later retrospective post. Was anything learned in the last 9 years?

Yes indeed, many more ways to enjoy flintlocks and that I needed to change my glasses.

 

[smokepolehall]

Of course i see this is an old post. I am gathering what info i can on a rifle build. I have a .40 cal .400-.408 bore x 32" 1:24 twist n was pondering a rock sparker build. My main hunting game will be the deer using 175-290 gr projectiles. Reason is i doubt the prb's would be accurate with powder loads from 45-75 gr of 3 f.