Maximum Range Flintlock

[Wes/Tex]

If size isn't your top concern...

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/cy99rH16gQk/maxresdefault.jpg

 

[kaintuck]

One man with one gun.....that he has had most of his life.
50cal, 46" barrel made by mr burton....
Plain iron sights, and no wind......

I stood once and watched as a 70 year old friend, take his 94' Winchester 30-30 and standing, shoot a crows head off at 150yds.......and told me he was going to do just that!

He had this same rifle all his life...... :surrender: :bow:

Those kinda people are few. And deadly.

 

[jerrywh]

Caliber .58
rifling Round or flat bottom- round bottom cleans and loads easier. Wide grooves narrow lands
Twist 1:72 or 1:66 use a buffer wad with 120 or 140 grs of ffg
32" barrel is as good as any. a 32" barrel won the long gong at the rendezvous 2 out of the last three years at 275 to 325 yds.
Top of touchhole should be level with the top of the pan. Need a good fast lock well tuned It is hard to beat a well tuned chambers lock
Stock must fit the shooter. Drop , length of pull and cast off or on very important. most people use to long of a pull. A short pull puts the weight of the gun more to the rear and makes the gun much easier to hold on target. tapered or swamped barrel.
Good set triggers.
Sights peep preferred vernier style. or a three bladed express.
These do not apply to a guy called mountain man in La grande Or. He can hit a bear at 200 yds with any good rifle almost every time.. On real good day I can beat him but not very often.

 

[Wes/Tex]

I was a good muzzle shot of a 3" ordnance rifle showing the multi rifling. I'll try again.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com...XreZAx3mmG63MwPLoJScAohdlkHVqpLD8aFDHf8sE-6gw

This is one of the shells for the ordnance rifle. Note the inserted lead grip band to engage the rifling and save the bore from the wear of the iron shell.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com...haKns3NlJgKIRHy5e6NqS20dCRr38ESpW0wqqgtEqOCtt

 

[tenngun]

In my case, the limitation would be mine, not the gun's. I generally don't shoot at deer past 75 yards with my flintlock. My eyes aren't what they used to be. If I want to shoot past 100 yards, I need a scope.

I heard that. I was out to the range this last weekend and decided to try the 100 yard with my southren rifle. Its a 50 in a 42 inch 7/8 barrle. It has v notch rear and low silver blade front. Its sighted to 6 oclock at 50 yards so I was holding center of target at 100. Been at least 5 years since I tried 100 yards and found I just couldn't get a good sight picture. Shot 6 shots 21/2 inchs wide 7 inchs top to bottom
That would kill a deer but I am always much closer.

 

[greggholmes]

Im guessing here but i think your bullet is to small.

 

[Walks with fire]

If I were to build one it would be for a paper patched .45 caliber pure lead bullet. I would design the barrel around the bullet selected. Probably around 1/28 twist but would do much consulting with people who know what works and what doesn't before I had the barrel made. I would want as high a bc. bullet as I could get that weighed at least 400 grains.

A 15/16" or 1" straight octagon glass bedded and pinned (maybe glued right in) and a straight fixed tang. Set triggers for sure and a ladder style rear sight. I think you would want a vent as small diameter as possible and a good platinum vent liner. Probably a Chambers built lock.

Such a rifle would provide about 5" midrange trajectory when sighted to 150 yards; drop at 200 would be around 12" and wind drift with a 10 mph. 90* crosswind would be about 12" as well. Still hitting with over a 1000 fpd at 200.

No ball rifle will come close.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The quintessential work on the subject of "long range" hunting with a patched round ball is Forsyth's The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles. In it he explains why he used a patched, round ball in 1867 when conical bullets were in use for hunting deer as well as dangerous game. His is the best work (imho) in part because the advent of the cartridge rifle followed by smokeless powder and high powered cartridges halted any further study of the patched round ball.

Forsyth tried to eliminate the range estimation problems out to 200 yards by using very large powder loads, and a special rifling twist and land/groove design to adjust for the large powder loads. He was trying for maximum velocity to reduce the bullet drop, while still delivering the ball to the vital spot with the first shot (he liked the shoulder shot) and with enough mass to dispatch the animal. He might be using what we would consider much larger caliber rifles than needed in North America for deer... but he was in the forests and jungles of India when tigers were still around, and open areas could contain cranky elephant or Indian rhino.

You can read about his practical experience, his application to his hypthesis and the ballistic science of the time Here .

LD

 

[Walks with fire]

A ball is a wonderful projectile but it takes a fist full of powder to get range out of it and it's still much more affected by winds than the bullet is. Even as little of 70 grains under a paper patched flat based heavy and long conical gets wonderful range and power.

I don't under estimate the round ball but there are better choices for long range hunting of big game with real black powder. I much prefer a round ball under 100 yards and I also much prefer a patched conical beyond 100 yards. It gets debated here quite frequently and seldom does anyone change the view they had originally when it's all hashed out.

Black powder bullet barrels/guns/bullets are a special item that is not easy to get into without quite a bit of expense. Barrels are not mated to the projectiles and they are custom made for the most part. I have some of the GM 1/28 twist barrels in .50 caliber and they are great shooters with pistol bullets and conicals but I still prefer my ball rifles for deer here in the woods of PA.

 

[Dean2]

LD


Thanks for posting that link. It was an excellent read.

 

[don hepler]

Walks with fire,

You just described my Shilo Sharps 45-110

 

[nkbj]

Just got a great buy on a used Lyman 575494. Don't have much use for a shorty hollow base .58 semi-wadcutter unless somebody starts making repro's of that five shot .577 Webley but threw the dice on the mold hoping the base plugs from the 575213 and the 577611 would fit it. They do! :wink:
Gonna be shooting some clean target perforating paper patched SWC's in the TC's.

 

[Dphar]

If you were designing a flintlock rifle to take game at the maximum possible distances, pushing the envelope of your knowledge and ability, what would you have for...

Caliber of barrel?
Rifling pattern?
Rate of twist?
Length of barrel?
Pan and flash hole?
Ignition channel (breech) design?
Stock configuration?
Trigger design?
Style of sights?

Something in the 4 to 2 to the pound range of bore size 72-96" twist. Weight about 35-50 pounds, pintle mount. Usable trigger. This will give max range. I Rev-War times these would strike a common piece of writing paper (from research this would be like 16-18" X 22-24" at the time).
For a hunting rifle? 50-69 cal max range 150 yards or so.
For longer ranges I use my something that shoots much better at longer ranges.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

The quintessential work on the subject of "long range" hunting with a patched round ball is Forsyth's The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles. In it he explains why he used a patched, round ball in 1867 when conical bullets were in use for hunting deer as well as dangerous game. His is the best work (imho) in part because the advent of the cartridge rifle followed by smokeless powder and high powered cartridges halted any further study of the patched round ball.

Forsyth tried to eliminate the range estimation problems out to 200 yards by using very large powder loads, and a special rifling twist and land/groove design to adjust for the large powder loads. He was trying for maximum velocity to reduce the bullet drop, while still delivering the ball to the vital spot with the first shot (he liked the shoulder shot) and with enough mass to dispatch the animal. He might be using what we would consider much larger caliber rifles than needed in North America for deer... but he was in the forests and jungles of India when tigers were still around, and open areas could contain cranky elephant or Indian rhino.

You can read about his practical experience, his application to his hypthesis and the ballistic science of the time Here .

LD

Forsythe was very experienced and his book should be required reading for anyone who hunts with a ML. But thinking he made something THAT special is a mistake. His ideas were not new they were just an answer the foolish notions of many British gunmakers of the 18th and 19th c.If you run his trajectories through a ballistics program he was making about 1600 fps with a 15 gauge (.680+-) ball with a 137 gr of powder, his stated maximum load for his 14 bore rifle. I have a English style sporting rifle that will make 1600 fps with a 16 gauge ball with 140 gr of FF Swiss and while it shoots pretty flat to 120-150 its not any better in this regard than a 54 at 1800+. Shooting past its point blank requires perfect range estimation just like any BP firearm.
So shooting LR at GAME is not a good idea. Too many variables. If people need to shoot LR then need something with a lot more velocity than BP will give to a RB given its limited BC.

Dan

 

[rr11]

I agree on 75 yards, however that is due to my old eyes not my rifle's ability. The weapon is good out to say 200 yards. Remember that the shooters of old normally only owned one rifle and shot it more than we can imagine. I remember my grandfather making shots with a old 1917 Infield that he had shot for 50 years. He knew the rifle and what it was capable of and what his limits were.

 

[Dphar]

If you were designing a flintlock rifle to take game at the maximum possible distances, pushing the envelope of your knowledge and ability, what would you have for...

Caliber of barrel? 4bore
Rifling pattern? radius
Rate of twist? 1/72
Length of barrel? at least 72 inches
Pan and flash hole?deep pan, at least 1/8 vent hole
Ignition channel (breech) design?Threaded standard breech
Stock configuration? full stock with rampart trunnions at balance point
Trigger design? high pinned
Style of sights? iron blade and notch with the assistance of a telescoped spotter in the blockhouse

Should be good for one thousand yards. Legend says Washington's Continentals had a smoothbore of similar configuration that could hit a piece of writing paper at 600 yards.

They were not smooth bored. They were RIFLES and they were special made for defense of forts etc.
Also a piece of writing paper at the time was about the size of Declaration of Independence and 4 sheets of paper as used for common documents could be cut from it. It was hand laid after all.
This would be about 16x22-24" from what I have read. Not too shabby at 500 yards for open sights.

Wall guns etc

Dan

 

[Dphar]

A ball is a wonderful projectile but it takes a fist full of powder to get range out of it and it's still much more affected by winds than the bullet is. Even as little of 70 grains under a paper patched flat based heavy and long conical gets wonderful range and power.

I don't under estimate the round ball but there are better choices for long range hunting of big game with real black powder. I much prefer a round ball under 100 yards and I also much prefer a patched conical beyond 100 yards. It gets debated here quite frequently and seldom does anyone change the view they had originally when it's all hashed out.

Black powder bullet barrels/guns/bullets are a special item that is not easy to get into without quite a bit of expense. Barrels are not mated to the projectiles and they are custom made for the most part. I have some of the GM 1/28 twist barrels in .50 caliber and they are great shooters with pistol bullets and conicals but I still prefer my ball rifles for deer here in the woods of PA.

One will still have to deal with trajectory. Which is high. Will 400 yard shots are easy with a modern rifle that will shoot under 1 MOA or much less at this distance a bulleted ML or BPCR is a different situation. Without a range finder its easy to under or over shoot even something as large as an elk. Then there is the risk of blowing off a leg not a pleasant prospect.
Having shot in competition for a number of years, I helped set three team records in BPCR Silhouette and spotted for a multiple times National Champion and having hunted almost exclusively with a BPCR for a few years and trying some long shots I can assure you that without a range finder a precision adjustable sight and a table of elevations for similar weather conditions long shots, past 200, are as much luck as anything else. Two of us, both well experienced and my hunting companion VERY experienced, BOTH misjudged a bull elk by over 100 yards one morning, big bull, light was bright on him. The amount of drop for a 40-90 and 44-90 over the extra distance was enough to put the bullets at least two feet under the chest even when judging it to be 300 (where I shot the rifle regularly for practice) this when being 120 yards "off". So if some one starts chest pounding go out on the prairie someplace unknown to the shooter and set up a couple of targets at 300-450 yards of unknown size (to the shooter) with no landmarks or other "aids" and let the guy shoot at them cold turkey no ranging just best guess. I can pretty well assure you how it will work out. It will be a miss since guessing short by 20 yards may drop completely off a deer with a center hold at 400+ yards with a 400 gr bullet in any of the 44-45 caliber and about the same for a 330-380 in the 40s.
But of course this sort of thing would likely make the chest thumper feel bad.
I have BTW hunted with BPCRs in 45-70, 40-70 SBN, 40-90 SBN, 44-90 SBN, 45-100 2.6", 450 BPE double rifle using bullets from 270 to 500 gr (for a buffalo). Elk, Antelope (one went B&C), many deer of both species.
The real question here is why do you want to hunt at long range with a ML? Its silly really. Even highly experienced pro buffalo hunters back in the day would miss deer the first shot at 300-400 yards. In this case they had switched to market hunting and this was documented in a journal from the 1880s.
Dan

 

[nkbj]

This thread is reminding me of jack rabbit hunting with a rifle and light loaded 165 grain SWC's. Takes practice. One evening at about 200 yards it took me three shots to connect, at which time the jack jumped up and ran in a twenty foot circle and fell over dead. When you're dealing with a rainbow trajectory you need to plan where the shot is going to happen if you can.
Got a barrel to have rebored to .36 for a medium twist to muzzleload in a flinter with those same molds. Looking forward to that!

 

[Dphar]

One other thing.
Very slow twists are not needed to get velocity.
I have a friend with a 69 caliber rifle with a 66" twist that will shoot at least 180 gr of powder with no "stripping". Since this caliber rifle with a 137 gr in a shorter barrel would shoot through an Indian Elephants head from side to side with a Mercury alloyed ball (Forsythe) I see little point in slower twists and shooting 200 gr of powder in a .62 for instance. Once past 120 gr of FF Swiss my 30" rifle with a 16 gauge (.662) ball goes past the point of diminishing returns. While it will still gain velocity with every increase it gets less and less as the charge increases. Note it has a Nock breech which was proven to produce more velocity than a plain breech or common "patent" breech back in the first quarter of the 19th c in testing by William Greener. Back in the FL era the British found that rough reaming a bore for a few inches at the breech increased penetration in shotguns. This was due I am sure to retarding initial movement of the shot charge. But there were other problems, increased fouling etc. That made this impractical.
So going REALLY slow on the twist, no matter what Forsythe thought, is not necessary and could make the rifle LESS efficient if it really did reduce friction.
So folks that make really slow twists and shoot really large charges should perhaps do more testing with faster twists to see if they really do strip and see at what point more powder is a waste of money. They are after all shooting a LOT more powder than Forsythe did.
Given the recoil level of my 10 pound 15 bore rifle with 140 gr I have no desire to shoot more than this. Which gives 1600 fps as I may have stated in another post. This allows it to shoot flat enough for any shots I need to make. It is an 8 groove barrel with .008" rifling and grooves at lest 4 times the lands.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Forsythe also said that his 14 bore (69) rifle would drive a ball though both shoulders of a Sambar (think medium sized elk) at 250 yards. I believe this was with his standard load of 5 drams, 137.5 gr of "Halls #2" powder by the European system of grain sizing (from then and now) this should be FFF. For example #2 Swiss is remarked FFF for the American market.

Dan