Middlesex Double Barrel

[jdkerstetter]

MVTC guns come to you ready to fire, the touch hole is drilled.

I am sure they were drilled once they reached our shores. I hope, for everyones sake, that they thoroughly inspect them before selling them as they are on the hook.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[mikeoosting]

Okay, one caveat....Middlesex Village guns are made in India. I cannot say what the quality of them is but I am just a bit more than a little bit wary of them. For some reason, they do not have the vent holes drilled so you will have to do that, or hire it done, after you get the gun. The other thing is that for $750, you have to ask yourself just how well regulated are the barrels. I suspect that they just lay the barrels side by side and solder them together. One shoots here and one shoots there. Their guns may look good in the pictures and may work excellently for reenactors but if you want to hit what you aim at with one........well, be cautious. They may be okay but then again....when you spend only $750 for a double barrel shotgun, what can you expect

I'm talking to a guy who owns one on another forum and apparently:

The stock is teak (which is hardwood, in response to all those claiming it was "mystery softwood") which is why the gun is heavy, teak is heavier wood than the woods people here use.

The barrels are actually the only "manufactured" part on the gun, and are cast together instead of manufacturing 2 separate barrels. I'm guessing they're cast of that original that was handmade a while back.

The gun is actually a 19 gauge (which is really, really, odd, but it's the second person to tell me this).

Some people report problems with the locks, some don't - to the point where the guy I'm talking with right now had one lock on his that performed great and another that performed terribly (apparently the trigger took a team of mules to pull, he just had to file it down in a few places and change the sear spring).

Other than that everyone I'm talking to that owns the gun says that once you either tune up or replace the locks, the gun's pretty good. One guy who owns multiple smoothbores says it patterns just as well as any of his other guns.

I think a few people on here are being just a little xenophobic :wink:

 

[Zoar]

I would double (or triple) check that price. Colerain is not far down the road from me and I am betting that they don't wholesale them to the Shoppe for that little. Could be a wierd one-off but I seems aweful low to me.

Here's the exact text of the email:

"Hi Michael,

There are some men that will assemble double barrel tube ( soldier tubes together, regulate point of impact ) but we do not. I can have the blank tubes made up; cut to length, threaded and taper turned, but they would then have to go to someone that could do the other work. It is a very specialized trade. 2 prepared tubes would be $250.

Regards

Scott"

Michael---The answer is in the email. They are tubes. NOT Barrels. You would need to do a lot of work to turn them into barrels. Tapping for breech plugs, breech plugs, installing them, vent hole drill and tapping, etc etc. Not to mention soldering them together and regulating them! which can be a multi-thousand dollar job alone.

Yes the idea of getting a small caliber flintlock is excellent! Although might I suggest getting a smooth bore like in 20 gauge or even .58 diameter. This way you can load it for squirrels OR use it for shooting birds! You could get the ideal first flintlock if you go smoothbore.

Smoothbore frontloaders do provide infinitely flexibility. Remember with a front loader you can easily load in the size and amount of shot to suit the game. And if you want to shoot big game with the same gun just put in one big fat round ball!

If I was to do it all again my first flintlock would have been a 54-62 diameter smoothbore.

 

[mikeoosting]

Michael---The answer is in the email. They are tubes. NOT Barrels. You would need to do a lot of work to turn them into barrels. Tapping for breech plugs, breech plugs, installing them, vent hole drill and tapping, etc etc. Not to mention soldering them together and regulating them! which can be a multi-thousand dollar job alone.

Damn. So much for that.

Yes the idea of getting a small caliber flintlock is excellent! Although might I suggest getting a smooth bore like in 20 gauge or even .58 diameter. This way you can load it for squirrels OR use it for shooting birds! You could get the ideal first flintlock if you go smoothbore.

Smoothbore frontloaders do provide infinitely flexibility. Remember with a front loader you can easily load in the size and amount of shot to suit the game. And if you want to shoot big game with the same gun just put in one big fat round ball!

If I was to do it all again my first flintlock would have been a 54-62 diameter smoothbore.

People keep saying this but I haven't been able to find a smoothbore flintlock for anything less than $1100 on the internet.

Whereas the .32 I had my eyes on is $600.

If someone could point out a decent smoothbore UNDER $1000, that would be great.

 

[jdkerstetter]

The barrels are actually the only "manufactured" part on the gun

What does that even mean? Is the rest of the gun built through devine intervention?

and are cast together instead of manufacturing 2 separate barrels.

Now I am really skeptical.....or am I just xenophobic....barrels and rib cast as a unit?!?! :shake:

I thought we had discussed the quality of these guns at length and had moved on.

Please try to stop defending these guns, none of which you own. If the owners and users or even the producers want to defend them I'm fine with that, but we can't debate second hand statements. How do you know the people who are giving you the information about the quality of these guns are even qualified to judge them.....owner does not a gun expert make.

It's your choice and you don't have to justify it to us as we have all made our choice.

Buy one, then post on the merits, or lack there of, with plenty of detailed pictures and we can discuss it at length.

I'm done :yakyak: , J.D.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

The barrels are actually the only "manufactured" part on the gun, and are cast together instead of manufacturing 2 separate barrels. I'm guessing they're cast of that original that was handmade a while back.

No, you are badly misinformed. The barrels are not "cast together" as you say or have been told. No one anywhere casts barrels, they are separately manufactured (by whatever process) and then assembled by soldering or brazing.

The gun is actually a 19 gauge (which is really, really, odd, but it's the second person to tell me this).

Not odd, that is just the gauge that they happen to have, others may be different.

Some people report problems with the locks, some don't - to the point where the guy I'm talking with right now had one lock on his that performed great and another that performed terribly (apparently the trigger took a team of mules to pull, he just had to file it down in a few places and change the sear spring).

If that is what he told you then there is no particular reason to doubt him but there is a lot more to modifying a lock than "file it down in a few places and change the sear spring". But maybe that approach worked for him. For a while.

Other than that everyone I'm talking to that owns the gun says that once you either tune up or replace the locks, the gun's pretty good. One guy who owns multiple smoothbores says it patterns just as well as any of his other guns.

Do keep in mind that all of the low cost guns imported from India with vents un-drilled are sold by their manufacturers as "imitation guns" - this is what Indian law calls them. They have not been proof fired and can not be sold in India as firearms unless prooved at the Indian national proof house. Those vendors that sell the guns with vents drilled are taking full responsibility for their safety as firearms and that is not to be taken lightly. If one blows, then Katey bar the door, they are fully responsible. This is true for the individual owner as well - if you drill the vent on one of these imitation guns and it blows, for whatever reason, you have no recourse other than to accept total legal responsibility.

I think a few people on here are being just a little xenophobic :wink:

Possibly, but so are you. To refuse to accept that these are of lesser quality, despite good advice, shows that you are looking down on people whose experience level is higher than yours. Name calling is all that you are doing.

For links to pertinent Indian firearms laws see:
http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india/laws/act/chapter_1_2.html

This takes you directly to "Indian Arms Act 1959". You will also want to get the information on "Indian Arms Rules 1962" at:
http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india/laws/rules/

You are smarter than us :shocked2: so search through these sites and you will find the information on "Imitation Firearms" and what must be done to make then safe for shooting by Indian law. The Indian craftsmen are good and more than capable of producing good and safe guns. Learn what needs to be done, then speak to everyone advising you against these items on an equal footing.

 

[mikeoosting]

No, you are badly misinformed. The barrels are not "cast together" as you say or have been told. No one anywhere casts barrels, they are separately manufactured (by whatever process) and then assembled by soldering or brazing.

This... does not sound good

If that is what he told you then there is no particular reason to doubt him but there is a lot more to modifying a lock than "file it down in a few places and change the sear spring". But maybe that approach worked for him. For a while.

Sorry, to clarify, he had a gunsmith "file down the locks and change the sear spring".

Do keep in mind that all of the low cost guns imported from India with vents un-drilled are sold by their manufacturers as "imitation guns" - this is what Indian law calls them. They have not been proof fired and can not be sold in India as firearms unless prooved at the Indian national proof house. Those vendors that sell the guns with vents drilled are taking full responsibility for their safety as firearms and that is not to be taken lightly. If one blows, then Katey bar the door, they are fully responsible. This is true for the individual owner as well - if you drill the vent on one of these imitation guns and it blows, for whatever reason, you have no recourse other than to accept total legal responsibility.

This I did not know and does make me concerned. That the guns are designed to be imitation not for firing .... :shake:

Possibly, but so are you. To refuse to accept that these are of lesser quality, despite good advice, shows that you are looking down on people whose experience level is higher than yours. Name calling is all that you are doing.

Actually, I said that in response to people talking about how they wouldn't fire a gun from Pakistan because they wouldn't want any more American money being sent to Pakistan :haha:

 

[mikeoosting]

Now I am really skeptical.....or am I just xenophobic....barrels and rib cast as a unit?!?! :shake:

I thought we had discussed the quality of these guns at length and had moved on.

Please try to stop defending these guns, none of which you own. If the owners and users or even the producers want to defend them I'm fine with that, but we can't debate second hand statements. How do you know the people who are giving you the information about the quality of these guns are even qualified to judge them.....owner does not a gun expert make.

It's your choice and you don't have to justify it to us as we have all made our choice.

Buy one, then post on the merits, or lack there of, with plenty of detailed pictures and we can discuss it at length.

I'm done :yakyak: , J.D.

:idunno: I was just reiterating what was said to me, I'm not actually planning to buy this gun.

 

[tiger13]

Yes, MVTC drills the touch hole.

 

[Zoar]

You want a decent smoothbore for under $1000....
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Cate...0/1/ENGLISH-FOWLING-GUN-FLINT-PARTS-LIST/List

$730 bucks or so...

There are many kits and you can find some at places like Track Of The Wolf and many other websites sell kits. Strongly recommend you have them attach the breech plug and touch hole vent. If you have them do these gunsmithing services then it is mostly woodwork....pretty enticing.

Or if you just want to get your feet wet in Flintlocks and get an excellent RIFLE you cannot beat $460 bucks for this: http://www.dnrsports.com/catalog/product/f3fbf36ab8d9a6a104ca299c0fd8d04b

 

[fyrfyter43]

Probably the CHEAPEST way to get into smoothbores is to watch for a used TC Hawken or Lyman GPR. You can send the barrel to somebody like Ed Rayl and have it bored out to a .58 smoothbore, or sometimes you can find a smoothbore barrel for sale for these guns.

However, notice that I said "cheapest", not "best". That's because one of these rifles, despite being bored out smooth, still won't handle like a fowling gun. Yes, it will throw shot, but it won't swing like a fowling gun.

 

[mikeoosting]

You want a decent smoothbore for under $1000....
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Cate...0/1/ENGLISH-FOWLING-GUN-FLINT-PARTS-LIST/List

$730 bucks or so...

There are many kits and you can find some at places like Track Of The Wolf and many other websites sell kits. Strongly recommend you have them attach the breech plug and touch hole vent. If you have them do these gunsmithing services then it is mostly woodwork....pretty enticing.

TVM sells the kit version of their American Fowler for $700. How difficult are these kits to assemble?

Jim Chambers Pennsylvania Fowler kit is $930 altogether, a bit more pricey but they do sell DVDs offering step-by-step assembly instructions as well as finishing kits and tools.

 

[mikeoosting]

Probably the CHEAPEST way to get into smoothbores is to watch for a used TC Hawken or Lyman GPR. You can send the barrel to somebody like Ed Rayl and have it bored out to a .58 smoothbore, or sometimes you can find a smoothbore barrel for sale for these guns.

Hell, I can get a NEW Lyman Trade (same calibre as the GPR) from a distributor not far from where I live for $386.

I'm looking it up and people are saying Ed Rayl will do this sort of thing for only around $100. That sounds like an incredibly reasonably priced smoothbore.

However, notice that I said "cheapest", not "best". That's because one of these rifles, despite being bored out smooth, still won't handle like a fowling gun. Yes, it will throw shot, but it won't swing like a fowling gun.

There's a difference between shot "swinging" and "throwing"? :shake: you've lost me :haha:

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Here is a picture of my lock change on my middlesex double barrel shotgun. I replaced the crap locks with L&R Mantons. The lock plates were close to the original just a little short in the back, So I filled in this small gap with sawdust and Elmer's wood glue. What can I say I was in a hurry. You can also see I browned the chrome polished barrels. It shoots a good pattern for a cylinder bore gun, unfortunately I am not much of a shotgunner so I can't give you an accurate report on the shot throwing. I have shot more round ball out of it than shot. It is great fun shooting .595 ball, ticking and 70 grains of 3F.
My best run on a ten bird string ( with a flintlock ) was seven out of ten using this gun.
So this is my double barrel flintlock shotgun for around a grand. If you don't want to buy one of these do not pick one up. I shouldered a friends and then turned around and ordered mine. I have been saying all along that India made guns are kits. This was the easiest one I have had.

 

[mikeoosting]

Here is a picture of my lock change on my middlesex double barrel shotgun. I replaced the crap locks with L&R Mantons. The lock plates were close to the original just a little short in the back, So I filled in this small gap with sawdust and Elmer's wood glue. What can I say I was in a hurry. You can also see I browned the chrome polished barrels. It shoots a good pattern for a cylinder bore gun, unfortunately I am not much of a shotgunner so I can't give you an accurate report on the shot throwing. I have shot more round ball out of it than shot. It is great fun shooting .595 ball, ticking and 70 grains of 3F.
My best run on a ten bird string ( with a flintlock ) was seven out of ten using this gun.
So this is my double barrel flintlock shotgun for around a grand. If you don't want to buy one of these do not pick one up. I shouldered a friends and then turned around and ordered mine. I have been saying all along that India made guns are kits. This was the easiest one I have had.

Doesn't look near as bad as others let on. Still, the option of having a Lyman rifle converted to smoothbore is much more affordable and the others are right, I think I should start single barrel.

I may work my way up to a double barrel eventually, who knows :grin:

 

[Musketeer]

The lock plates were close to the original just a little short in the back, So I filled in this small gap with sawdust and Elmer's wood glue. What can I say I was in a hurry.

Looks fine to me. As long as the gun is functional, that's all that matters. Function over form. :hatsoff:

 

[fyrfyter43]

Probably the CHEAPEST way to get into smoothbores is to watch for a used TC Hawken or Lyman GPR. You can send the barrel to somebody like Ed Rayl and have it bored out to a .58 smoothbore, or sometimes you can find a smoothbore barrel for sale for these guns.

Hell, I can get a NEW Lyman Trade (same calibre as the GPR) from a distributor not far from where I live for $386.

I'm looking it up and people are saying Ed Rayl will do this sort of thing for only around $100. That sounds like an incredibly reasonably priced smoothbore.

However, notice that I said "cheapest", not "best". That's because one of these rifles, despite being bored out smooth, still won't handle like a fowling gun. Yes, it will throw shot, but it won't swing like a fowling gun.

There's a difference between shot "swinging" and "throwing"? :shake: you've lost me :haha:

By throwing shot, I mean that you can shoot shot out of it, and with some load development work will get a good pattern. By swinging, I mean swinging on the target - following the bird's flight, swinging past it and following through after the shot.

It may not seem obvious to some, but a fowling gun is very different from a rifle. The stock architecture is much different, and the barrel is lighter. A rifle stock and a rifle barrel bored out smooth will not make a good fowling gun. It will make a smoothbore rifle (hence the term smooth rifle).

 

[mikeoosting]

By throwing shot, I mean that you can shoot shot out of it, and with some load development work will get a good pattern. By swinging, I mean swinging on the target - following the bird's flight, swinging past it and following through after the shot.

It may not seem obvious to some, but a fowling gun is very different from a rifle. The stock architecture is much different, and the barrel is lighter. A rifle stock and a rifle barrel bored out smooth will not make a good fowling gun. It will make a smoothbore rifle (hence the term smooth rifle).

:shake: things just keep getting more and more complicated.

Why wouldn't a smoothbore rifle swing like a smoothbore shotgun, if the difference is the weight of the barrel and shape of the stock? As in, what aspect of it being a rifle affects its ability to hit a moving target like that?

I think I understand what you're saying - you're saying that this makeshift shotgun wouldn't be much good at wing shooting grouse in comparison to a real shotgun, even if it could shoot a still target same as a real shotgun.

 

[Oldnamvet]

Both the weight and balance point of the fowler are greatly different from a rifle. with the rifle more weight out front lets you "hang" on target better but you would not be able to get it swinging fast enough to catch up to birds. I have used both a smoothbore hawken and a fowler for trap and skeet. Believe me, it is far easier to track and hit birds with a fowler than with a smoothbore rifle. Not that it can't be done but it is much more difficult with a smoothrifle.

 

[mikeoosting]

Both the weight and balance point of the fowler are greatly different from a rifle. with the rifle more weight out front lets you "hang" on target better but you would not be able to get it swinging fast enough to catch up to birds. I have used both a smoothbore hawken and a fowler for trap and skeet. Believe me, it is far easier to track and hit birds with a fowler than with a smoothbore rifle. Not that it can't be done but it is much more difficult with a smoothrifle.

Hmmm. But we're talking a significant price difference here, for an assembled gun the cheapest fowler out there is a TVM Fowler for $1100.

Whereas I can get the Lyman Trade Rifle for $386, get it bored for $60 (plus the cost of shipping the barrels) and have a smoothbore rifle for $450 or so.

:idunno: I suppose you really do get what you pay for.

On the upside that $450 gun could serve as an introductory gun to flintlocks for me. I could use it for just about everything, hell, even bring it for deer.

Maybe someday down the road I could get a nice quality fowler, maybe even the double barrel I drooled over, but I think this smoothbore rifle will have to do for now.