Middlesex Double Barrel

[jdkerstetter]

Near the beginning of this string you were willing to pay $1000 for an Indian SXS flinter of questionable quality and a pair of L&R locks to up grade it and now you can't or don't want to afford an $1100 TVM.

80 posts later and now we learn you are going to settle for a rifle which you are going to have bored out smooth.

Please tell me you have the $1000 and all of this wasn't an excersize in futility. We could have all saved allot of time if we had known from the start what you were willing to or could spend. I kind of feel like a salesman on the Cadillac lot who's spent all day with you only to find out your credit is bad.

A fowler will do everything that a smooth rifle will do and do it better. A smooth rifle isn't designed to do what a fowler does.

If it is a fowler you want then call TVM or whoever, place your order, send your deposit and save up the difference in the mean time. You will be happier in the long run and in all probability you will have it before hunting season.

Take your time and do your homework. J.D.

 

[mikeoosting]

Near the beginning of this string you were willing to pay $1000 for an Indian SXS flinter of questionable quality and a pair of L&R locks to up grade it and now you can't or don't want to afford an $1100 TVM.

80 posts later and now we learn you are going to settle for a rifle which you are going to have bored out smooth.

Please tell me you have the $1000 and all of this wasn't an excersize in futility. We could have all saved allot of time if we had known from the start what you were willing to or could spend.

If it is a fowler you want then call TVM or whoever, place your order, send your deposit and save up the difference in the mean time. You will be happier in the long run and in all probability you will have it before hunting season.

Take your time and do your homework. J.D.

Again, I'm just weighing my options and thinking out loud. I think I dove into this a little quick and now I'm trying to think things out.

I'm a complete novice to these flintlocks and spending over a grand on something I've got no experience with seems a little silly.

The Indian flintlock was a bad idea - but, I didn't know that at the beginning of this thread. And since very few here were actually willing to give me any real information about it until the very end, I doubted a lot of what was being said, so this post dragged on quite a bit. The reason it's a bad idea, I know now, is because the gun is designed, by Indian legal standards, to be just an imitation not to be used for firing.

What I can spend is actually quite a bit, what I'm willing to spend varies considerably. All options are open.

 

[mikeoosting]

Well, I was watching this thread to see what I could do to help and where it was headed. I do have an original that the locks say Manton in gold inlay on it, though I personally am not 100% sure that it is, JMHO. The barrels are (from memory too late and me too lazy to get out at the moment)Damascus as they should be and in gold inlay on the barrel rib it is markes "Harcourt.Ipswich". Anyhow the original locks were converted to perc. I bought a pair of L&R locks and welded the lock plates and fit those to the original lock mortice, then sent them out to be tuned , by LC Rice when he was still doing it. I have shot it many times and it shoots nice,has very good bores, but this 18ga. needs to be priced way north of $2000. I had not thought of selling it at all, but I have a couple of other SxS flinters, that I use more. Maybe I should not have posted this here?

Nice gun you got there, you should definitely have posted it here even if I can't have the thing I still enjoy the pics.

 

[Billnpatti]

I don't know if anyone has suggested looking at the kits offered by Sitting Fox. They are easily assembled and affordable. They are good quality American made stuff. They are not quite as good as the kits offered by Jim Chambers or TVM but they are good, affordable and easily assembled. Take a look at www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com.

 

[roundball]

There are quite a few completely finished long guns there too. While most 'fowlers...especially the so-called 'club butt' fowlers...have never really appealed to me, I thought the completed Virginia fowler looked pretty decent...

 

[Dave K]

Michael, must not be the right place to post it. Didn't really mean to run an ad here, but just replying to the thread. Kind of seeing tyhat the India gun was posted, and added to it. I understand it being removed, just thought it would have where it was moved to.Anyrate, you saw it and that is what counted.

 

[Zoar]

That Virgina Fowler at Sitting Fox sure looks sweet.

Michael---Do you think you may have basic, simple, direct wood working abilities, sanding and cutting out some wood so that parts fit closely without butchering? I think you probably do.

In which case the option of ordering a fowler kit from Sitting Fox AND adding on some of the gunsmithing (vent hole drilled and tapped and breech plug install, if that does not come automatically with the kit) then that could be a fantastic way for you to get a FOWLER smoothbore for around $700-$800 bucks and a bit is sweat equity (ie your wood work and assembly).

I have made flintlocks from kits. It is not that hard. Just take your time. You seem to be good at weighing options and taking your time to come up with valid solutions despite any OPPOSITION or CHALLENGE.

I think you could have what it takes to do a build from a kit as long as they do the gunsmithing / metal work.

 

[justtim]

This whole subject is giving me a headache. I'd love for everyone to shoot a flintlock like I do and welcome all to try one. BUT, this started out as a dodge to get around taking a test .Why one could get an exemption just by using a flintlock boggles the mind. As if they are not "real" guns ???? And then we go from a willingness to spend North of a grand for a piece of junk down to "settling" for a off the shelf rifle made into a muzzleloading shotgun ? Please ! Just a couple weeks ago at Friendship I saw 3 fowlers for sale all under a grand. Used ? Yes, but quality guns all.
I wish you were here in the States. I could sell you a minty T/C Renegade that comes with a .50 cal rifle barrel and a 20 ga smoothbore barrel.... $400.

 

[jdkerstetter]

This whole subject is giving me a headache.

I second that. I think this could have been subdivided into several post as it has wandered so far off the original topic.

I know what you mean about the guns being out there. At Dixon's last year I saw more than one fowler under a grand. One was under $500, way too much wood left on but assembled with quality parts...good project gun. You just have to have patience and be willing to do the leg work.

Mike, You have been given a ton of options. Between what the fine folks here have provided and internet searches you should be able to find a suitable fowler in your price range.

Good Luck and Enjoy , J.D.

 

[Zoar]

Actually, I think Michael described his "ascension" pretty well. He started out thinking one thing and is getting educated thusly has re-adjusted. And he has faced some pretty sharp criticism and I applaud him for his tenacity and that in part is why I think he would make a good Flintlock from a kit. Although my first suggestion is and continues to be get a flintlock, used or an inexpensive GPR ($360-ish) and start learning and shooting one.

 

[Robby]

Dave K, I got to see it before it was deleted. Very nice!!!!! :thumbsup:
Robby

 

[mikeoosting]

I don't know if anyone has suggested looking at the kits offered by Sitting Fox. They are easily assembled and affordable. They are good quality American made stuff. They are not quite as good as the kits offered by Jim Chambers or TVM but they are good, affordable and easily assembled. Take a look at www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com.

They are a lot cheaper. http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/k/K1 Appalachian Barn Gun/K1 Appalachian Barn Gun.htm

"We can make it even easier by breeching the barrel, inletting the lock and locating the trigger as well as soldering on the underlugs and sight and cut the butt to your length of pull for $100 over the kit cost as option #1"

So, essentially, for $669 I can get a gun that all I have to do is woodwork. I can do woodwork.

 

[mikeoosting]

Actually, I think Michael described his "ascension" pretty well. He started out thinking one thing and is getting educated thusly has re-adjusted. And he has faced some pretty sharp criticism and I applaud him for his tenacity and that in part is why I think he would make a good Flintlock from a kit. Although my first suggestion is and continues to be get a flintlock, used or an inexpensive GPR ($360-ish) and start learning and shooting one.

Pretty much :thumbsup: I very well could get a cheap Lyman and learn with it. Hell, get someone to bore it out and it would be good for a combination of things, squirrel and rabbit included, even if it wouldn't be good for a fowling gun.

However with the option for a kit that I could do myself at $669, I might just go with that.

 

[jdkerstetter]

So, essentially, for $669 I can get a gun that all I have to do is woodwork. I can do woodwork.

There is a lot more to it than wood work or everybody would be doing it.

Not to say you can't do it but it is not as straight forward as it seems. Do you know anything about trigger geometry? "Locating" is not going to be enough The barrel and breach plug/tang will have to be inlet and installed....Lock installed and tapped for nails, etc. etc. etc.

Just some things for you to consider.

That is why an assembled, in-the-white gun from TVM is only $100 less than a finished gun. There is A LOT INVOLVED. THIS NOT A KIT but an assortment of parts that need to be finished and assembled in a given order so they all function together.

Did you notice this statement at the end of the page on Sitting Foxes site?

"You can also order this gun fully assembled and ready for your final wood and metal finish for only $999 or fully finished for $1099"

There is a lot that remains to be done.

These are the reasons why there are so many books and videos sold on the subject. I sugest you get a few and read them before you spend your money on one of these "KITS".

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Mike,

I think you are a good candidate for an " in the white" fowling piece from Tippy Curtis for about the same price as squatting fox. Just get some help from someone who knows barrels and hardware to help you order the right thing. The biggest bore offered in a certain OD is usually best. I like what he calls his "high comb" English fowling piece profile. Shoot it in the white to zero it in on comb height.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Capt. Jas.

Any idea what Tip's in-the-white guns cost these days?

In his add on the NMLRA web-site he list his "smoothbore rifle and fowler kits - $725.00 and up".

I won't see him until Dixon's in July.

Enjoy, j.D.

 

[Dave K]

I don't know his prices today and like everything that a person sells, the best thing is to call them and get the real nitty gritty. But, at one time a good fowler in the white would be around $1100. I certainly wouldn't want to have someone use that number as gospel though. He can tell you that. He does make a nice gun in the white though that is well worth the money in my opinion.

 

[Zoar]

QUOTE: "Pretty much :thumbsup: I very well could get a cheap Lyman and learn with it. Hell, get someone to bore it out and it would be good for a combination of things, squirrel and rabbit included, even if it wouldn't be good for a fowling gun.

However with the option for a kit that I could do myself at $669, I might just go with that." END QUOTE

Michael---The other thing you will quickly learn is you can't just get one flintlock... and you do want them to be different. A 54 caliber rifle (GPR let's say) is great to learn on and to shoot round balls with, then you get a smoothbore Fowler. Hence no reason to bore out the GPR.

Now that you are open to more options, I bet you could buy a flintlock used from someone on this website. Did you look in trader's section?

 

[mikeoosting]

Michael---The other thing you will quickly learn is you can't just get one flintlock... and you do want them to be different. A 54 caliber rifle (GPR let's say) is great to learn on and to shoot round balls with, then you get a smoothbore Fowler. Hence no reason to bore out the GPR.

Now that you are open to more options, I bet you could buy a flintlock used from someone on this website. Did you look in trader's section?

I think I'm slowly learning this lesson :haha:

If I were to get a RIFLE, it would most likely be in a smaller calibre like .32 or .36 - the whole purpose of this venture was getting into small game, when I was young I used to find squirrel and rabbit and the like to be the most fun to hunt.

The only reason I go out with my bow anymore is because my brother drags me out, hunting isn't as fun as it once was, so I just need to switch game to make things more interesting! :thumbsup:

Dixie Gun Works sells a .32 Pedersoli Kentucky for $600. Not bad. I like the Scout Carbine a little more, and it's only $75 more too.

 

[airborne2037]

few more things to add..

1) these guns come from the manufacturer with NO touch hole..the touch hole is either drilled by the distributer or by you when you get the weapon.
that being said-the barrels on these weapons have NOT been proof tested (it might just blow up in your face with a stout load). Check out the pedersoli website and look at their proof testing methods they use before their guns leave the factory.

2) The steel used on these weapons from india is very questionalble. look at a picture of this gun compaired to a more expensive one made by a reputable gun maker and you'll see the difference.

3) The wood used on the stocks is also very poor quality. not sure what it is but it is NOT walnut or anything else that i would stock a weapon with.

I myself own the Heavy dragoon pistol(I had to drill the touch hole and ive re-finished the stock twice and still cant get it to look right) that Middlesex village sells as well as the Murdock pistol. great for playing with but nothing that id trust my life on.