Military Heritage India-made Fusil de Chasse

[sturmkatze]

They don't add the touch hole to keep costs down. My understanding is that India taxes real firearms, including black powder muzzleloaders, heavily. There are also additional costs incurred in export/import fees.

If they don't drill the touch hole it is non-functional - a wall hanger for decoration.

I can tell you it isn’t costs. They don’t drill the touch hole because India has strict gun control and it is a legal thing. I have talked to a couple of their big wigs. Is a serious law which is what they told me.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Of this I have no doubt, absolutely beautiful work. What I don't see are Murdoch's, Jacobean muskets/pistols, matchlocks, blunderbusses, dragoons, miquelets, ect. What he does it very good and of a different era. I have no doubt he can make a beautiful earlier piece but it doesn't seem to be what he does which is why I have mentioned there is little to no competition for what India is producing. On the flip side India is not producing guns of the same period as what Mike builds. As a result you have builders (domestic and India) producing different products and trying to compare. TRS is the closest comparison but that is comparing a pile of castings to a complete ready to fire gun. It's all apples and oranges

I only built what my market demanded. I did make maybe a half dozen blunderbi over the years but nothing pre 1750. I built guns mainly for shooters/trekkers. They pay good money for good stuff. Reenactors on the other hand are more willing to spend money on thier uniforms than their guns. I'm Not interested in that sort of mindset.

 

[FlinterNick]

I only built what my market demanded. I did make maybe a half dozen blunderbi over the years but nothing pre 1750. I built guns mainly for shooters/trekkers. They pay good money for good stuff. Reenactors on the other hand are more willing to spend money on thier uniforms than their guns. I'm Not interested in that sort of mindset.

Reinactors also don’t pay for quality muskets or pay to have them repaired, one of the reasons why i don’t deal with them anymore.

I get requests to restock Indian long lands and others, when i tell them the cost of materials and work there like a deer in headlights.

Reputation is important too, and nobody wants to be considered a Junk Gunmaker Hack.

This week I’m delivering a 1742 Track Bess i assembled and getting started on three more. All kit owners are non-reinactors too, and are repeat buyers.

 

[sturmkatze]

Reenactors on the other hand are more willing to spend money on thier uniforms than their guns. I'm Not interested in that sort of mindset.

Other than Roman, what I reenacted, were used real firearms. The real ones. But in older periods, yes, I can see it. Many do not and have never shot their guns live. I know a guy who owns an 08-15 Spandau that has only ever shot blanks with it?!?! Kind of a liberal mindset.

You have to have both, but I’ll not disagree… there’s a high dweeb factor where they’ll have everything rose dead-on b4lls accurate and the gun will be sub par.

 

[Sam squanch]

You would need to move the India gunmakers over here. Any nice walnut planks and good quality steel would be stolen and sold my the middlemen, then they would pocket the difference. That’s what I’ve been told by a business man from India….

 

[Commodore Swab]

. . . one of the reasons why i don’t deal with them anymore.

. I'm Not interested in that sort of mindset.

Seems to me based on your interest in the topic you guys do care. I blame American manufactures, how many would be buying India weapons if the locks and kits for the earlier era were available here for the same price as a long rifle kit? As mentioned earlier with their prices increasing there is a market opening up.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I don't see a very large market for early guns. I like them, but only reenactors are going to want then and they already balk at India prices.
There aren't as many reenactors as there used to be.

 

[Sam squanch]

There is not much of a market for the oddball guns in the US except for re e actors. The only consistent business I know of is the Day brothers in Massachusetts. Rifle shoppe? If you are old , I’d pass, because you may die before you get your parts….any investors want a profit, and it seems only civil war guns, Hawkins, revolvers, and inlines( shudder!!) are selling. James Kibler is doing ok. Any other style , you need a custom builder, and that ain’t cheap!

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Ain't cheap for a reason. A quality set of parts for a plank built gun will go over 1k
More if you like nice wood. Pay a talented man a decent hourly wage to put it all together and you're looking at 4 to 5k.

 

[Sam squanch]

Or do it yourself. Some early guns were crude, so would look right . If you are inexperienced, with shop space and tools, give it a try!

 

[Trot]

There is not much of a market for the oddball guns in the US except for re e actors. The only consistent business I know of is the Day brothers in Massachusetts. Rifle shoppe? If you are old , I’d pass, because you may die before you get your parts….any investors want a profit, and it seems only civil war guns, Hawkins, revolvers, and inlines( shudder!!) are selling. James Kibler is doing ok. Any other style , you need a custom builder, and that ain’t cheap!

I know Leonard Day has passed away, I wonder if anyone is carrying on the business. I have a Leonard Day Dutch trade gun and really like it.

 

[Sam squanch]

I think his sons run it now. Nice guys all of them.

 

[waksupi]

Well the Indian guns will take any charge a rice or green Mountain or any Pedersoli will
They shoot center
Smooth as any other factory gun I’ve seen.
So why is an older barrel better for you?

I had an Indian gun pass through here with the breech only threaded 1/4". Things like that give me the heebie jeebies.
Something I always forget, is most of the cheap imports are being used by re-enactors with blanks, and unaware of overall proper construction of a gun. They are only for appearances for an under educated public. I'm reminded of the re-enactor on American Housewife, although he appears to be carrying a pretty nice rifle.

 

[FlinterNick]

There is not much of a market for the oddball guns in the US except for re e actors. The only consistent business I know of is the Day brothers in Massachusetts. Rifle shoppe? If you are old , I’d pass, because you may die before you get your parts….any investors want a profit, and it seems only civil war guns, Hawkins, revolvers, and inlines( shudder!!) are selling. James Kibler is doing ok. Any other style , you need a custom builder, and that ain’t cheap

I’ve been getting a ton of requests for early stuff, mostly dog locks and preland pattern stuff.

 

[PathfinderNC]

I recently got back into Rev war reenactment. Folks do indeed spend a majority of their attention to clothing and camp accessories- but it is understandable in that 1) It is more family oriented with wives, girlfriends and children participating, and 2) most of the use of muskets are done in drills and battles which maybe take up 2 to 4 hours of an event day, tops. The firearms are really used as a representation for effect more than anything. Considering that John Q Public knows even less about things historical, a low cost and mass- produced “musket” is understandably the go-to prop for the Living History hobby.
In a way, participating in reenactments with more of an understanding of the weapons can be an opportunity to “teach the teachers” about these weapons, (and especially on how to care for them properly!).
There is nothing more disgraceful than watching a whole Company of ‘soldiers’ make ready, aim and fire, only to hear the clack of 10 locks and 2 discharges

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I’ve been getting a ton of requests for early stuff, mostly dog locks and preland pattern stuff.

Is anyone willing to pay any money for them?

 

[FlinterNick]

Is anyone willing to pay any money for them?

The rifle shoppe sends them to me to assemble, already paid for, i just get paid for the assembly and if they want it engraving and polishing.

Other casters too like Butch Schroller, a guy from England sends me stuff but the castings are the best.

I work closely with Jess Melot, he’s mentoring me on lost wax castings in the spring, and hardware castings.

I’m trying to get away from kit builds with people and focus only on locks, triggers, hardware etc. I’ve sent a few your way with early twigg and Dutch fowler locks.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

If you can assemble rifle shop locks you have a career.

 

[tenngun]

Anyone can overload or test their guns, however you can’t apply any legal witness marks, so whats the point?

The risk to yourself and potentially others is not good.

I’ve seen Don Getz do tests on 12L14 barrels to prove his point that its safe, he loaded a 12L14 barrel with powder within 1 inch of a 35 inch muzzle, nothing happened

Three times loaded, nothing. Four times loaded nothing.

Those self proof tests by loyalist arms and middlesex trading are really not proof tests at all, its just a way for them to deal with customer concerns over Indian barrels being unsafe.

I live in the US, I don’t send guns to other countries, so for me this legal proof mark is a bit of a joke.
Track of the wolf sells all the proof stamps for a NWG,
I’m pretty sure if you buy a NWG or FDC from Loyalist it will have the government proof mark. Will that make you feel better?
My Centermark has a proof mark, but was never proofed

 

[tenngun]

Back in the day, when the Brits controlled India, they outsourced all sorts of manufacturing to India. Many of the "British" firearms, especially military arms, were made in India.

India has a long history of metal work. The basic racial group of India is the same basic racial group of Europe, with Afganastan and Iran as the bridge.
But guess which side of that broad arc of Indo-European peoples first started iron and steel work
I would dare say a fifteen year old kid whose family has been in metal work for a couple of thousand years sitting on a dirt floor using his feet as a vice could preform well on forged in fire competitions
I see above Getz, who doesn’t officially proof his barrels makes his from 12L14 steel. I don’t know exactly what that means. But I’m willing to bet it’s a high stress absorbing steel that represents the best of modren chemistry can produce for the needs of ml.
However, shooters have a 700 year history of barrels made often of bog iron and similar mined products that functioned safely and in some cases after two centuries still does.