Military Heritage India-made Fusil de Chasse

[sturmkatze]

So what does it cost to defab a perdersoli?

I can tell you. I paid $300 for my pedersoli Bess. It was really dirty and I assume owned by an American reenactor, as it had never been polished and had surface rust. I removed the rust. I removed the Italian markings (yes, I took a photo to add to bottom of barrel someday). I drove over to Allentown, to the Lehigh gun show for Paul Ackerman to stamp the barrel for me ($20-40, I don’t remember). Lodgewood doesn’t do that. Then in the spring, I drive down to Winchester at the NSSA Nationals and delivered Auntie Bess to Dave from Lodgewood (because I’m a tightwad and wasn’t spending all that to ship it). I had him defarb it ($200) and redo the lock markings ($200 more because I wanted “Dublin Castle” on it). I broke a mainspring using Evaporust to clean the lock plate — mainspring exploded ($50 or so). Yeah, didn’t know about that — @FlinterNick told me about it after I posted. Live and learn.

I meet Dave again at the Maryland Antique show and picked it up. Still a tightwad. Neat show. Multiple people and dealers tried to buy the gun as they thought it was real.

I’ve since had the frizzen hardened because it wouldn’t spark right. I’d like to get the lock polished more like it should be and have talked to Nick.

Anyway, I’ve got around $800 in the gun (with purchase) and am happy with it now. Of course, I got mine for a great price. That helped.

I’d love a long land, but probably will have to settle for an Indian one, maybe. I don’t need it though. I’m getting older and reenacting is harder and not realistic. Soldiers were not elderly. I’m now 59, not quite elderly, but not really able to portray ac soldier. They were younger guys. Yes, I know, many do, but it’s my opinion. Do it right or… and yeah, my gun is nicer than my colonial kit. I did it backwards.

 

[FlinterNick]

So you are basically comparing long rifle prices with India products. Wouldn't it be more correct to compare long rifle prices with India long rifles so you are comparing the same thing? Perhaps it would be best to compare India blunderbusses, mortars, matchlocks, ect with their domestic counterpart? The point is very simple you can't because there is no competition for either. India isnt making long rifles so comparing their guns to long rifles is irrelevant. What is relevant would be comparing Indian guns to comparable gunsmiths that are building custom pieces because that is exactly what they must be compared only so you are comparing apples to apples. Now you would be comparing a cheap mass produced weapon with an individual hand built.

To simply say they are dangerous I offer this. They are around in such numbers and in the hands of some of the most inexperienced shooters shouldn't there be a wealth of accidents to pool from proving your point?
View attachment 268645
I have worked on a few, this was going out last year.

A brown bess is the best example I can come up with and here is the comparison. You can get a functional bess imported from india for about $750. You can find one from pendersoli for ____ (what is the price and availability on a new pendersoli anyways?). Or you can order from the rifle shoppe and spend $1200 on a parts set, of course then you still need to find someone to assemble it. The cost of that assembly naturally varies with the builder I think 1500-3500 is a fair estimate. All 3 guns "work" but naturally there is a build difference associated with the cost and it would be foolish to consider them all the same. Very few guns are comparable across the spectrum and to tell someone they shouldn't buy a blunderbuss (I use blunderbuss as an example because it is indian and unobtainum domestic) because it's "junk" when the only option is to have one hand made at ??? times the cost (TRS has no blunderbuss barrels) is not stupid but just plain mean.

Never said they were dangerous, i said garbage, to be more clear…. Very poorly made, thats my opinion, its up to you whether or not you feel my opinion is an informed one, I’ve worked on over 30 of them, and put the breaks on it because the time cost is not worth it to me.

My example was about the intrinsic value of a good rifle or musket that appreciates with investment into to the piece.

There are not many examples of Indian guns selling for more value than a miroku, rifle shoppe or pedersoli.

There was a fella that won on auction a french 1728 and was duped into believing it was a rifle shoppe kit, he paid something like 1100 for it and went around asking and begging for help from myself and others, he was rejected by everyone.

Later discovered to be a middlesex gun.

Indian guns do not hold their value, they simply do not match the investment potential l of other arms.

In the picture below you’ve got an Indian made gun with two touch holes, drilled by whom ever. A barrel band that is jammed on sight tight it cracked, miss aligned screws, frizzen to pan has a 2mm gap.

For a 1100 purchase, this what i call devastating, i wouldn’t put a 400 value on this pile of crap.

Saying no to this job was a no brainer.

 

[springfield art]

I see a lot of Indian made guns new and old.

There was old Indian gun maker from the 1970’s and 80’s that made REAL firearms.

Often confused for pedersoli guns, these were professionally made, and stocked in Turkish Walnut, often stamped by the distributor Henry Krank and Sandy McNab. These are the only Indian guns i can honestly say are worth any intrinsic value. These are very rare, and were custom ordered guns, the maker which escapes me, closed up shape some time in the late 1980’s. his arms often show up on auction.

These were also proofed by British, West German and Belgian Proof Houses.

Most Indian barrels I’ve seen owned by reinactors are in extremely poor condition, so poor that the breech plugs can be turned off the barrel by HAND !

Personally will not do anything to the barrels other than clean them as best as i can, if they’re ever in my shop.

They’re not breeched appropriately at all, there is almost no shoulder between the face of the breech plug and the bore, none at all and the breech is flanged …. You don’t see this on black powder guns, for a reason, the gas seal. Will it ever explode, not likely however I simply dont’ trust it, the threads are often very shallow and very close too, not ideal for a black powder arm.

Now as far as proofing goes, well Loyalist Arms and Middlesex both advertise some home made method of proofing, which is absurd, and you can’t exactly proof stamp your own barrel within any recognizable laws.

Lastly, proof houses do not publish their results to avoid disclosure, anyone here claiming they know, all that is known from proof houses is what the fail vs. pass rate is and you can see what their arms imports are, the rest is all empirical judgment.

As I’ve stated before, american barrels in 12L14 steel and A36 and 1035 steel are sold world wide and proofed world wide, but not proofed in the USA, and there is far and few published failures in public records.

My rejection of Indian Barrels as to do with what i want to see personally in a barrel.

For example a Brown Bess Barrel has a certain expectation on the breech shape and taper toward the muzzle, Indian barrels simply do not meet this, neither does a pedersoli so i own neither.

Same thing for French and American guns, i want my arms to be authentic within a tolerance of what i know to be accurate.

Lock Quality

Lock qualities vary often, Loyalist arms does their best i believe, however there are two issues i can honestly say plague iIndian locks.

Materials and Geometry.

The steel is less than adequate for a flintlock, i know that India is heavily involved in recycled steels from ship yards, so its hard to say what you’re working with.

Geometry, the locks are not made with correct geometry, i don’t believe they work off of good patterns because of this.

I woudln’t even place a chambers, davis or Kibler lock in the same category.

I re-enacted for ten years (Rev) and couldn't count the numbers of times I saw re-enactors show up at an event with a musket Uncleaned since the last one! Not all, but many.

 

[springfield art]

I can tell you. I paid $300 for my pedersoli Bess. It was really dirty and I assume owned by an American reenactor as it had never been polished and had surface rust. I removed the rust. I removed the Italian markings (yes, I took a photo to add to bottom of barrel someday). I drive up to Allentown to the Lehigh gun show for Paul Ackerman to stamp the barrel for me ($20-40, I don’t remember). Lodgewood doesn’t do that. Then I went to Winchester and delivered Auntie Bess to Dave from Lodgewood (because I’m a tightwad and wasn’t spending all that to ship it). I had him defarb it ($200) and redo the lock markings ($200 more because I wanted “Dublin Castle” on it). I broke a mainspring using Evaporust to clean the lock plate — mainspring exploded ($50 or so). Yeah, didn’t know about that — @FlinterNick told me about it after I posted. Live and learn.

I’ve since had the frizzen hardened because it wouldn’t spark right. I’d like to get the lock polished more like it should be and have talked to Nick.

Anyway, I’ve got around $800 in the gun (with purchase) and am happy with it now. Of course, I got mine for a great price. That helped.

I’d love a long land, but probably will have to settle for an Indian one, maybe. I don’t need it though. I’m getting older and reenacting is harder and bit realistic. Soldiers were not elderly. I’m now 59, not quite elderly, but not really able to portray ac soldier. They were younger guys. Yes, I know, many do, but it’s my opinion. Do it right or… and yeah, my gun is nicer than my colonial kit. I did it backwards.

Good post. I have at least three guns that could use lock tuning and work. How true, about the soldiers. And, older re-enactors!

 

[springfield art]

Several years ago I bought at auction an India-made Bess that was owned by a deceased re-enactor who at one time did a Geo. Washington impression for the Delaware River crossing; at least that's what I was told, as they had his clothing outfit. Anyway, the musket is quite high quality, and the barrel measures .74 cal. It's a bit on the heavy side, and the wood is somewhat thick, but it was my 1st India-made gun, introduction to them. I would not hesitate to shoot it live should I wish to. Just sayin'

 

[waksupi]

Why do you need all those multiples? Most reenactors don’t have all that. They also don’t clean stuff that often.

That's what I was thinking. I personally have made most of my gear over the years. It's all part of the hobby.

 

[sturmkatze]

I re-enacted for ten years (Rev) and couldn't count the numbers of times I saw re-enactors show up at an event with a musket Uncleaned since the last one! Not all, but many.

Exactly. Many have never fired a gun before. No ideas of safety even. And, a lot of the not cleaning is a learned behavior — they see other reenactors doing it and follow. To combat that, units really need to have an activity to clean their weapons right after combat and inspect. I go to a certain shoot and get home late at night. If I have to work the next day, I try and wipe it and spray them until I can get to it properly. I also don’t take a ton of guns to shoots anymore.

My own brother calls me Saturday, as his custom Hawken was misfiring — bad. Sounds like the upshot was that he had oil in the breech or something. I think he will redouble his cleaning efforts. In Nevada he is.

I wish we COULD have a meaningful discussion on bp cleaning, but it always devolves into a 40 page argument.

 

[springfield art]

I have found that re-enactors that had been in the real-life Army (or Marines or whatever) kept their guns cleaner; just an opinion, not something that I can prove.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Never said they were dangerous, i said garbage, to be more clear…. Very poorly made, thats my opinion, its up to you whether or not you feel my opinion is an informed one, I’ve worked on over 30 of them, and put the breaks on it because the time cost is not worth it to me.

My example was about the intrinsic value of a good rifle or musket that appreciates with investment into to the piece.

There are not many examples of Indian guns selling for more value than a miroku, rifle shoppe or pedersoli.

There was a fella that won on auction a french 1728 and was duped into believing it was a rifle shoppe kit, he paid something like 1100 for it and went around asking and begging for help from myself and others, he was rejected by everyone.

Later discovered to be a middlesex gun.

Indian guns do not hold their value, they simply do not match the investment potential l of other arms.

In the picture below you’ve got an Indian made gun with two touch holes, drilled by whom ever. A barrel band that is jammed on sight tight it cracked, miss aligned screws, frizzen to pan has a 2mm gap.

For a 1100 purchase, this what i call devastating, i wouldn’t put a 400 value on this pile of manure.

Saying no to this job was a no brainer.

I would say 30 min to an hour tops of work to put that gun into functional order and I would help the person. I guess thats where we differ rather than telling him to "go away" a small investment of my time and we have someone that can go out and use what could be a functional gun. Nothing that you illustrated couldn't be fixed in short order by someone with half the skills you claim to have.

 

[sturmkatze]

I would say 30 min to an hour tops of work to put that gun into functional order and I would help the person. I guess thats where we differ rather than telling him to "go away" a small investment of my time and we have someone that can go out and use what could be a functional gun. Nothing that you illustrated couldn't be fixed in short order by someone with half the skills you claim to have.

Skippy (since I don’t know your actual name), it takes a lot more than that if the lock is effed up. You don’t just fix the problems that Nick is talking about. Not just soft parts, but really bad fitting and geometry.

Lord skippy sir, first, after you tell us who you are (enquiring minds wanna know), why don’t you start a business doing this? Provide that service full time as a business.

 

[FlinterNick]

Skippy (since I don’t know your actual name), it takes a lot more than that if the lock is effed up. You don’t just fix the problems that Nick is talking about. Not just soft parts, but really bad fitting and geometry.

Lord sloppy sir, first, after you tell us who you are (enquiring minds wanna know), why don’t you start a business doing this? Provide that service full time as a business.

30 min to an hour…. Oh i missed that part lol. Yea, that’s definitely not going to work in any professional business, thats kitchen counter work.

Case hardening time takes at least 3 hours on a sunny day, backing the part in charcoal sealed in an oven for 1 hour, then lowing the temp to 1300-1400, and then tempering for another 45 min and testing.

What commodore is talking about is carburizing with cherry red, that’s pretty much a superficial duct tape job that will last about a 20 - 30 rounds of shooting if you’re lucky, its a very superficial way of making a gunlock spark, but it looks good in pictures lol

personally i also don’t use cherry red because it sucks, there’s no cyanide in it. I make my own with bone charcoal peach pit charcoal and sodium and pottasium ferrocyanide, however i bake it on first and then case harden.

I don’t carburize much, as it doesn’t provide a lasting wear surface.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Lord sloppy sir, first, after you tell us who you are (enquiring minds wanna know), why don’t you start a business doing this? Provide that service full time as a business.

No thank you. I have no desire to have keyboard warriors tear apart what they don't know. I don't work on percussion guns so I keep quiet. Maybe those who dont work on india guns should also just keep quiet . . .

 

[rickystl]

huge demand now in the USA for fowlers.

I lost an auction a few days ago for some English walnut, sold for 500 for the blank

That's interesting about the current demand for fowlers. Any idea why ?

Seems like English walnut has never been inexpensive. Think I paid around $700.00 to Wayne Dunlap for an extra nice blank that would take a 50" barrel - about 4 years ago.

After about 48", nice wood seems to double in price.

Rick

 

[sturmkatze]

No thank you. I have no desire to have keyboard warriors tear apart what they don't know. I don't work on percussion guns so I keep quiet. Maybe those who dont work on india guns should also just keep quiet . . .

Yeah, I meant Skippy. But still, you evade the question. Who are you? Maybe I need to look in my computer and lo, your signature has it. Usually I’m in my phone, hence typos like sloppy, which I fixed before you posted. Sorry.

Who said anything about percussion guns? I simply asked who you are? My name is in my signature as is, at least one of, my websites.

You have said rude and nasty things about Nick and Mike. Sure, say it to me, I’m just a reenactor. I just shoot flintlocks. But if you’re going to say it, tell me your name, your muggle name.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Who needs these indian guns when you can save up your money and have something worth while.

 

[sturmkatze]

Who needs these indian guns when you can save up your money and have something worth while.

Is that one of yours that’s been aged??

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Is that one of yours that’s been aged??

Yep. I don't recall if it is a TOTW or TRS. I think I did about 5 of these. They sold instantly.

 

[FlinterNick]

Yep. I don't recall if it is a TOTW or TRS. I think I did about 5 of these. They sold instantly.

Nice job, I’m actually shipping one tomorrow , track of the wolf kit.

 

[rickystl]

L

Is that one of yours that’s been aged??

Looks like the handy work of Mike Brooks (?)

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Woops. Sorry Nube. My error. Great job !!

Rick