Military Heritage India-made Fusil de Chasse

[tenngun]

Ain't cheap for a reason. A quality set of parts for a plank built gun will go over 1k
More if you like nice wood. Pay a talented man a decent hourly wage to put it all together and you're looking at 4 to 5k.

Tent, $ 600, trouser-breeches-pantaloon $100, need two or three, in woolen or linen $150-200. Shirt, $50-150, stockings $35 a piece, need 4, waist coat $150-250 need two, coat $2-500, over coat 3-500, small stuffknifes,fire kits ,cooking and camp fire kit, grooming,candle lantern candles, $1000, oh I forgot hats. 1-300 plus knit for winter and maybe a cap or two, another hundred
Don’t forget shoes and or boots,booties.
Am I forgetting any thing?
Gee, you can’t drive a Rolls and drink Don Perion then you ain’t crap, you can’t play with the big boys

 

[FlinterNick]

I live in the US, I don’t send guns to other countries, so for me this legal proof mark is a bit of a joke.
Track of the wolf sells all the proof stamps for a NWG,
I’m pretty sure if you buy a NWG or FDC from Loyalist it will have the government proof mark. Will that make you feel better?
My Centermark has a proof mark, but was never proofed

I’m talking about modern proof stamps, not historical stamps, these stamps are marked by proof houses which are usually owned by gun manufactures and represent their legal stamps of approval, this also holds no legal value overseas in Europe. For example Henry Arms proof tests their own guns, as a type of guarantee.

But why proof test at all ? It costs time and money, and no one monitors it.

ATF could care less if a gun is proof tested by a company or an individual or a government.

 

[FlinterNick]

India has a long history of metal work. The basic racial group of India is the same basic racial group of Europe, with Afganastan and Iran as the bridge.
But guess which side of that broad arc of Indo-European peoples first started iron and steel work
I would dare say a fifteen year old kid whose family has been in metal work for a couple of thousand years sitting on a dirt floor using his feet as a vice could preform well on forged in fire competitions
I see above Getz, who doesn’t officially proof his barrels makes his from 12L14 steel. I don’t know exactly what that means. But I’m willing to bet it’s a high stress absorbing steel that represents the best of modren chemistry can produce for the needs of ml.
However, shooters have a 700 year history of barrels made often of bog iron and similar mined products that functioned safely and in some cases after two centuries still does.

If you as a metallurgist 12L14 steel is not ideal for any gun barrels, however it’s just fine for black powder guns, it’s cold drawn for a high tensile strength. Other steels are more ideal for rifles, such as 1030-1045, 4140, 4130 and 8620. Ed Rayl uses 4140 and 8620.

India is known as the steel recycling capital of the world, Indian companies buy scrap and recycle steel. Personally i don’t like Indian steel for that very reason, its made of a compilation of alloys and irons that shouldn’t be together, some of their steels are very nickel heavy too.

This is also another reason why Indian made muskets are very cheap, they have an endless supply of junk steel.

 

[rickystl]

Ain't cheap for a reason. A quality set of parts for a plank built gun will go over 1k
More if you like nice wood. Pay a talented man a decent hourly wage to put it all together and you're looking at 4 to 5k.

That's probably true today. I'm neither a gunsmith or a builder. But I've purchased a number of custom built guns over the years.
Our government has depreciated our money over the last 20+ years to an extent we never thought possible.
Here is a custom English Fowler/Officers Fusil that I purchased new from Mike Brooks in 2007, and paid $2,000.00 I'm confident this same gun would probably cost about $3,500.00 + today. That's a lot of inflation for just 16 years.

I've noticed on auctions, used custom guns from even the 1970's/80's are bringing $1,000.00+

Rick

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I remember that, cherry stocked officers gun.

 

[PathfinderNC]

That's probably true today. I'm neither a gunsmith or a builder. But I've purchased a number of custom built guns over the years.
Our government has depreciated our money over the last 20+ years to an extent we never thought possible.
Here is a custom English Fowler/Officers Fusil that I purchased new from Mike Brooks in 2007, and paid $2,000.00 I'm confident this same gun would probably cost about $3,500.00 + today. That's a lot of inflation for just 16 years.

I've noticed on auctions, used custom guns from even the 1970's/80's are bringing $1,000.00+

RickView attachment 268424View attachment 268430View attachment 268432View attachment 268433View attachment 268434

I think that Fowler would be worth that and more. If I wa looking and able, I wouldn’t hesitate on it for $3500.

 

[FlinterNick]

I think that Fowler would be worth that and more. If I wa looking and able, I wouldn’t hesitate on it for $3500.

huge demand now in the USA for fowlers.

I lost an auction a few days ago for some English walnut, sold for 500 for the blank

 

[tenngun]

I’m talking about modern proof stamps, not historical stamps, these stamps are marked by proof houses which are usually owned by gun manufactures and represent their legal stamps of approval, this also holds no legal value overseas in Europe. For example Henry Arms proof tests their own guns, as a type of guarantee.

But why proof test at all ? It costs time and money, and no one monitors it.

ATF could care less if a gun is proof tested by a company or an individual or a government.

Exactly
Worrying about proofs is a fool errand
Telling me x is crap because it’s not proofed when y and z one brags on isn’t proofed either. And in the end no one can demonstrate that x is dangerous

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

huge demand now in the USA for fowlers.

I lost an auction a few days ago for some English walnut, sold for 500 for the blank

I remember back in the early 2000s I could buy english walnut blanks from Goby walnut cut 3" thick and would take a barrel 50" long for $275. That was for the very hard , good color plain stuff. Curly stuff was of course $500-$750 +. Those were the days!. I built a lot of very nice english fowling guns with that stuff. I have one piece left that is going into a Kibler fowling gun when he gets it up and running.

 

[rickystl]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm retired now. So I probably could not afford to buy back my own guns at today's prices. LOL
Here's another one I purchased around the same time as the fowler: Virginia style rifle made from a blank of premium++ maple, using the best parts, including minimal carving,

and assembled by a great maker at the time. Cost me $2,500.00 and the builder included a custom length canvas case.

The only point I was trying to make was the inflation, especially the most recent, has likely exceeded the ability of many to afford a custom made gun. Even from a high quality kit.

I've always thought that besides the cost, what attracted many to the India made guns was the availability of some models simply not available elsewhere - other than TRS. Which could take a very long time to get. Then you have to find an experienced builder that is not 1-2 years on backorder - and is actually looking for the business. Not as easy as you would think.

Rick

 

[PathfinderNC]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm retired now. So I probably could not afford to buy back my own guns at today's prices. LOL
Here's another one I purchased around the same time as the fowler: Virginia style rifle made from a blank of premium++ maple, using the best parts, including minimal carving, View attachment 268492and assembled by a great maker at the time. Cost me $2,500.00 and the builder included a custom length canvas case.

The only point I was trying to make was the inflation, especially the most recent, has likely exceeded the ability of many to afford a custom made gun. Even from a high quality kit.

I've always thought that besides the cost, what attracted many to the India made guns was the availability of some models simply not available elsewhere - other than TRS. Which could take a very long time to get. Then you have to find an experienced builder that is not 1-2 years on backorder - and is actually looking for the business. Not as easy as you would think.

Rick

I was very fortunate to get a Fowler (with a 51” .69 caliber barrel) that was partially built and finish it up. It’s an amazing piece.

 

[sturmkatze]

Tent, $ 600, trouser-breeches-pantaloon $100, need two or three, in woolen or linen $150-200. Shirt, $50-150, stockings $35 a piece, need 4, waist coat $150-250 need two, coat $2-500, over coat 3-500, small stuffknifes,fire kits ,cooking and camp fire kit, grooming,candle lantern candles, $1000, oh I forgot hats. 1-300 plus knit for winter and maybe a cap or two, another hundred
Don’t forget shoes and or boots,booties.
Am I forgetting any thing?
Gee, you can’t drive a Rolls and drink Don Perion then you ain’t manure, you can’t play with the big boys

Why do you need all those multiples? Most reenactors don’t have all that. They also don’t clean stuff that often.

 

[tenngun]

Why do you need all those multiples? Most reenactors don’t have all that. They also don’t clean stuff that often.

Exactly
It cost to get started in this hobby, but there is a path for people to come and play without being broke.
11Bang Bang channel on you tube has got in to ml and living history big time. Although he had some interest before he was scared off by the price, then he got a veteran arms, and is hooked.
This much looks like the anti Traditions. Or anti harbor freight for that matter
I’ve got some Pakistan knifes, they look good and cut stuff. The sharpen easily, but hold the edge well.
I’ve got some cotton cloth cut in to eighteenth century clothing. Vary rare back in the day.
My tent is now from tent smith, it ain’t linen canvas, I’m ok with that
When I hear some one run on about how Indian guns are garbage and real men shoot only bench copies I give a Bronx cheer.
When you tell me there is some magic quality that makes a gun that shoots when you pull the trigger, has very close to the same profile as the originals, has a barrel that if cared for will take any charge your shoulder can handle and shoot on par with the bench copy, one had best be prepared to tell me what that magic thing is, because it ain’t visible on the shooting line

 

[FlinterNick]

I remember back in the early 2000s I could buy english walnut blanks from Goby walnut cut 3" thick and would take a barrel 50" long for $275. That was for the very hard , good color plain stuff. Curly stuff was of course $500-$750 +. Those were the days!. I built a lot of very nice english fowling guns with that stuff. I have one piece left that is going into a Kibler fowling gun when he gets it up and running.

Every now and then i make a drive out to Lancaster PA, the Amish have some good stuff for reasonable prices, but it’s a hike from where I’m at. I’ve picked up some decent walnut slabs, not over dried too. They’re great for Cherry and Maple, lower prices too.

Most of the wood imports we’re getting from South America now, wood like Bolivian Walnut and Rosewood, some of this stuff is almost as hard as iron. The grain runout is terrible on most of them.

 

[FlinterNick]

When I hear some one run on about how Indian guns are garbage and real men shoot only bench copies I give a Bronx cheer.
When you tell me there is some magic quality that makes a gun that shoots when you pull the trigger, has very close to the same profile as the originals, has a barrel that if cared for will take any charge your shoulder can handle and shoot on par with the bench copy, one had best be prepared to tell me what that magic thing is, because it ain’t visible on the shooting line

Guns are investments, some gun appreciate some do not, the ones that do not are garbage.

Depends on who’s calling them garbage, I call them garbage because I’ve worked on them. For a year or two i worked on over 20 of them, fixing locks mostly and i did it in good faith for the reinactors that needed them, not for profit. The real value i found in working on them was building a portfolio of what i can do to a really ****** lock. Other builders and smiths like Paul Ackerman, Kevin Dougherty and Jess Melot talked me out of working on any more because it was chewing up into my custom lock building time. So it was a logical choice to throw the garbage in the trash.

So i call them garbage now.

The real pain from Indian gun ownership comes in with the following.

1. Wanting to defarb them into more accurate copies.
2. Wanting to upgrade them with premium parts, or stocks.
3. Fitting castings on to the gun that don’t go to them.

The average Indian gun is around 700 now a days, a defarb in my shop will run 500, 600 with stamps.

Now your up to 1300 spent on the gun with investment.

Gun owner now wants an upgraded frizzen, cost to fit a new frizzen that will work is $100, to make a handmade frizzen $300.

New mainspring, cast fit, $100, a handmade mainspring $300.

now you’ve spent with investments up to nearly 1500 - 2000 on a gun that you purchased for 700.

When you move to sell that gun you get offers for 800-1000, you’re in the hole almost 600-700 dollars now.

All that cash could have been used to purchase a very nice custom gun with value to it.

When i bought my first gun it was a clay smith second gun, cost me around 700, pins were screwed up mostly and the stock had no figure, davis lock was very nice. I learned a lot from that gun, all i did was refinish it. Picked up a veneering technique from a fine furniture maker , learned how to Dutchman over holes and make it fit the wood grain, blended it in with a satin refinish of mowhawk varnish and linseed oil. 20 hours of my time, and around 70 dollars in supplies.

That Clay Smith gun sold for $2100, mostly because it was a Clay Smith Kit Gun, this was back in 2009.

Now i have much added equity to my hobby, this is how you afford new guns, build up your equity investment in your guns, be smart about what you’re buying and you’ll have ones i don’t call garbage.

And when you start getting scores insults from Indian gun owners, people telling you that you have no clue what you’re talking about, i know for granted that they have to constantly work on those hunks of garbage.

 

[tenngun]

Guns are investments, some gun appreciate some do not, the ones that do not are garbage.

Depends on who’s calling them garbage, I call them garbage because I’ve worked on them. For a year or two i worked on over 20 of them, fixing locks mostly and i did it in good faith for the reinactors that needed them, not for profit. The real value i found in working on them was building a portfolio of what i can do to a really ****** lock. Other builders and smiths like Paul Ackerman, Kevin Dougherty and Jess Melot talked me out of working on any more because it was chewing up into my custom lock building time. So it was a logical choice to throw the garbage in the trash.

So i call them garbage now.

The real pain from Indian gun ownership comes in with the following.

1. Wanting to defarb them into more accurate copies.
2. Wanting to upgrade them with premium parts, or stocks.
3. Fitting castings on to the gun that don’t go to them.

The average Indian gun is around 700 now a days, a defarb in my shop will run 500, 600 with stamps.

Now your up to 1300 spent on the gun with investment.

Gun owner now wants an upgraded frizzen, cost to fit a new frizzen that will work is $100, to make a handmade frizzen $300.

New mainspring, cast fit, $100, a handmade mainspring $300.

now you’ve spent with investments up to nearly 1500 - 2000 on a gun that you purchased for 700.

When you move to sell that gun you get offers for 800-1000, you’re in the hole almost 600-700 dollars now.

All that cash could have been used to purchase a very nice custom gun with value to it.

When i bought my first gun it was a clay smith second gun, cost me around 700, pins were screwed up mostly and the stock had no figure, davis lock was very nice. I learned a lot from that gun, all i did was refinish it. Picked up a veneering technique from a fine furniture maker , learned how to Dutchman over holes and make it fit the wood grain, blended it in with a satin refinish of mowhawk varnish and linseed oil. 20 hours of my time, and around 70 dollars in supplies.

That Clay Smith gun sold for $2100, mostly because it was a Clay Smith Kit Gun, this was back in 2009.

Now i have much added equity to my hobby, this is how you afford new guns, build up your equity investment in your guns, be smart about what you’re buying and you’ll have ones i don’t call garbage.

And when you start getting scores insults from Indian gun owners, people telling you that you have no clue what you’re talking about, i know for granted that they have to constantly work on those hunks of garbage.

So what does it cost to defab a perdersoli?
Looking at the offerings by loyalists they are much closer to besses and Charlie and certainly NWG then perdersoli and there is none of the use black powder only stamps

 

[tenngun]

I got my fort ml in 73 or4 fell in love. Except for self defense it’s all I shoot. I haven’t hunted with a breech loader since my first ml
Been on a bunch of treks and two six week woods walks, lots of hunting lots of events. My guns lived rough, but I treat them like babies as much as I can.
Never got a clatch in the deer woods
Been in rain and snow and cold enough to get frost on my blankets in the chilly am.
In fifty years I broke one spring.
Any could break tomorrow but having to replace a spring isn’t a big worry for me

 

[hopping]

Guns are investments, some gun appreciate some do not, the ones that do not are garbage.

Depends on who’s calling them garbage, I call them garbage because I’ve worked on them. For a year or two i worked on over 20 of them, fixing locks mostly and i did it in good faith for the reinactors that needed them, not for profit. The real value i found in working on them was building a portfolio of what i can do to a really ****** lock. Other builders and smiths like Paul Ackerman, Kevin Dougherty and Jess Melot talked me out of working on any more because it was chewing up into my custom lock building time. So it was a logical choice to throw the garbage in the trash.

So i call them garbage now.

The real pain from Indian gun ownership comes in with the following.

1. Wanting to defarb them into more accurate copies.
2. Wanting to upgrade them with premium parts, or stocks.
3. Fitting castings on to the gun that don’t go to them.

The average Indian gun is around 700 now a days, a defarb in my shop will run 500, 600 with stamps.

Now your up to 1300 spent on the gun with investment.

Gun owner now wants an upgraded frizzen, cost to fit a new frizzen that will work is $100, to make a handmade frizzen $300.

New mainspring, cast fit, $100, a handmade mainspring $300.

now you’ve spent with investments up to nearly 1500 - 2000 on a gun that you purchased for 700.

When you move to sell that gun you get offers for 800-1000, you’re in the hole almost 600-700 dollars now.

All that cash could have been used to purchase a very nice custom gun with value to it.

When i bought my first gun it was a clay smith second gun, cost me around 700, pins were screwed up mostly and the stock had no figure, davis lock was very nice. I learned a lot from that gun, all i did was refinish it. Picked up a veneering technique from a fine furniture maker , learned how to Dutchman over holes and make it fit the wood grain, blended it in with a satin refinish of mowhawk varnish and linseed oil. 20 hours of my time, and around 70 dollars in supplies.

That Clay Smith gun sold for $2100, mostly because it was a Clay Smith Kit Gun, this was back in 2009.

Now i have much added equity to my hobby, this is how you afford new guns, build up your equity investment in your guns, be smart about what you’re buying and you’ll have ones i don’t call garbage.

And when you start getting scores insults from Indian gun owners, people telling you that you have no clue what you’re talking about, i know for granted that they have to constantly work on those hunks of garbage.

Now this is the most accurate reply to India made muskets that I have seen. It matches my experience. I have been building and working BP for just over 60 years. My first FFL was June of 1963. I've built many long rifles and worked on many Italian rifles and muskets. I don't work on India made muskets because of the quality and liability worries that a customer might blame me if he blows up a India musket through neglect, stupidity or carelessness. I have two India made "Charleville" muskets in the shop alongside a Pedersoli and an original to show the difference. I've heard all the defenses of the Indies and understand the price issue but FlinterNick is dead on. You have to do too much to make up for the low grade metal and poor contours to defarb them. Most of my BP business is for living history customers who care about authenticity when in front of the public. I do restoration, preservation and conservation for museums and collectors mostly. BP Competitors are the best customer because they know what they want and know the value of a reliable rifle that wins matches. The average reenactor wants a really cheap rifle or musket that needs a lot of work done to make it fire reliably and they don't want to spend the money. My biggest issue/concern is the breech and tang attatchment quality.

 

[sturmkatze]

Exactly
It cost to get started in this hobby, but there is a path for people to come and play without being broke.
11Bang Bang channel on you tube has got in to ml and living history big time. Although he had some interest before he was scared off by the price, then he got a veteran arms, and is hooked.
This much looks like the anti Traditions. Or anti harbor freight for that matter
I’ve got some Pakistan knifes, they look good and cut stuff. The sharpen easily, but hold the edge well.
I’ve got some cotton cloth cut in to eighteenth century clothing. Vary rare back in the day.
My tent is now from tent smith, it ain’t linen canvas, I’m ok with that
When I hear some one run on about how Indian guns are garbage and real men shoot only bench copies I give a Bronx cheer.
When you tell me there is some magic quality that makes a gun that shoots when you pull the trigger, has very close to the same profile as the originals, has a barrel that if cared for will take any charge your shoulder can handle and shoot on par with the bench copy, one had best be prepared to tell me what that magic thing is, because it ain’t visible on the shooting line

Good sir, I think you’re missing some of it. Some Indian craftsmen are fabulous — most are not as there is no control. IF someone wins the lotto and can GO THERE and control it. Maybe. Watch the movie Outsourced to get an idea of what it would be like.

It just is a crapshoot as to whether you’ll get something right or overfished and soft metal in the parts.

As a reenactor… I always tell people to go slow. Do not rush. Take someone with you or ask the group. 50/50 if they will.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Guns are investments, some gun appreciate some do not, the ones that do not are garbage.

Depends on who’s calling them garbage, I call them garbage because I’ve worked on them. For a year or two i worked on over 20 of them, fixing locks mostly and i did it in good faith for the reinactors that needed them, not for profit. The real value i found in working on them was building a portfolio of what i can do to a really ****** lock. Other builders and smiths like Paul Ackerman, Kevin Dougherty and Jess Melot talked me out of working on any more because it was chewing up into my custom lock building time. So it was a logical choice to throw the garbage in the trash.

So i call them garbage now.

The real pain from Indian gun ownership comes in with the following.

1. Wanting to defarb them into more accurate copies.
2. Wanting to upgrade them with premium parts, or stocks.
3. Fitting castings on to the gun that don’t go to them.

The average Indian gun is around 700 now a days, a defarb in my shop will run 500, 600 with stamps.

Now your up to 1300 spent on the gun with investment.

Gun owner now wants an upgraded frizzen, cost to fit a new frizzen that will work is $100, to make a handmade frizzen $300.

New mainspring, cast fit, $100, a handmade mainspring $300.

now you’ve spent with investments up to nearly 1500 - 2000 on a gun that you purchased for 700.

When you move to sell that gun you get offers for 800-1000, you’re in the hole almost 600-700 dollars now.

All that cash could have been used to purchase a very nice custom gun with value to it.

When i bought my first gun it was a clay smith second gun, cost me around 700, pins were screwed up mostly and the stock had no figure, davis lock was very nice. I learned a lot from that gun, all i did was refinish it. Picked up a veneering technique from a fine furniture maker , learned how to Dutchman over holes and make it fit the wood grain, blended it in with a satin refinish of mowhawk varnish and linseed oil. 20 hours of my time, and around 70 dollars in supplies.

That Clay Smith gun sold for $2100, mostly because it was a Clay Smith Kit Gun, this was back in 2009.

Now i have much added equity to my hobby, this is how you afford new guns, build up your equity investment in your guns, be smart about what you’re buying and you’ll have ones i don’t call garbage.

And when you start getting scores insults from Indian gun owners, people telling you that you have no clue what you’re talking about, i know for granted that they have to constantly work on those hunks of garbage.

So you are basically comparing long rifle prices with India products. Wouldn't it be more correct to compare long rifle prices with India long rifles so you are comparing the same thing? Perhaps it would be best to compare India blunderbusses, mortars, matchlocks, ect with their domestic counterpart? The point is very simple you can't because there is no competition for either. India isnt making long rifles so comparing their guns to long rifles is irrelevant. What is relevant would be comparing Indian guns to comparable gunsmiths that are building custom pieces because that is exactly what they must be compared only so you are comparing apples to apples. Now you would be comparing a cheap mass produced weapon with an individual hand built.

To simply say they are dangerous I offer this. They are around in such numbers and in the hands of some of the most inexperienced shooters shouldn't there be a wealth of accidents to pool from proving your point?

I have worked on a few, this was going out last year.

A brown bess is the best example I can come up with and here is the comparison. You can get a functional bess imported from india for about $750. You can find one from pendersoli for ____ (what is the price and availability on a new pendersoli anyways?). Or you can order from the rifle shoppe and spend $1200 on a parts set, of course then you still need to find someone to assemble it. The cost of that assembly naturally varies with the builder I think 1500-3500 is a fair estimate. All 3 guns "work" but naturally there is a build difference associated with the cost and it would be foolish to consider them all the same. Very few guns are comparable across the spectrum and to tell someone they shouldn't buy a blunderbuss (I use blunderbuss as an example because it is indian and unobtainum domestic) because it's "junk" when the only option is to have one hand made at ??? times the cost (TRS has no blunderbuss barrels) is not stupid but just plain mean.