Military Heritage India-made Fusil de Chasse

[rickystl]

"****** lock".......LOL !!!!! Sorry Flint. I had to laugh. It reminded me of the time Mike Brooks made the comment about a stock stain. He said it looked like poop brown. LOL.

Commodore: That photo you posted with all the flinters.......That doesn't look like a hobby or business. Looks more like someone's disease. LOL !!

Rick

 

[FlinterNick]

No thank you. I have no desire to have keyboard warriors tear apart what they don't know. I don't work on percussion guns so I keep quiet. Maybe those who dont work on india guns should also just keep quiet . . .

Enough is known about Indian guns to make well informed judgment call on them.

Personally i think this debate is largely based on emotions that folks need to justify to themselves and others why they chose to invest in such a low quality item, you’ve really just identified yourself as one of them.

BTW if i haven’t said this, Buy American Made, America strong.

 

[rickystl]

I purchased one of those British Heavy Dragoon pistols from Middlesex years ago when they sold for $295.00 as I recall. With the frizzen closed on the pan, the cock jaws, at half-cock were so close to the frizzen there was no way to insert a flint of any size. So you could only insert a flint and use the gun at full-cock. Well, this won't do. So I sent the gun to my gunsmith and friend Earl Kathan to see what he could do. Appeared one or both cuts in the tumbler were in slightly wrong positions. Before making a new tumbler, I gave Earl the ok to try an experiment. He heated the tumbler shaft and made a very slight twist and hardened same. Well, along with some additional small tuning and frizzen hardening it worked. Lock functions good now. Notice in the photo of the lock with the cock at full rest, it sits back just slightly. A little funky, but I was happy.
I was still not satisfied. I thought the stock had too much wood. And that chrome like polish was too much. So I took the chance (a big one LOL) and called Mike Brooks to see if he would slim the stock down and apply his antique finish. He surprised me and accepted the job. I didn't think he would knowing how he felt about India made guns. He said he had never worked on one and was curious. Anyway, the pistol turned out looking so much better. Mike mentioned that whatever wood they used seemed soft and clogged up files and rasps very quickly.
So the pistol looks and functions likely better than the same pistol you can buy today for about $150-200.00 more. And I probably more than doubled my original cost for the pistol with all the extra work done. But it's still an Indian made gun. So I probably couldn't sell it for any more than a new one. Such is the nature of these guns.

Rick

 

[BillinOregon]

I've heard that Brooks feller does good work ...

 

[Commodore Swab]

You have said rude and nasty things about Nick and Mike.

What and where?

 

[FlinterNick]

I would say 30 min to an hour tops of work to put that gun into functional order and I would help the person. I guess thats where we differ rather than telling him to "go away" a small investment of my time and we have someone that can go out and use what could be a functional gun. Nothing that you illustrated couldn't be fixed in short order by someone with half the skills you claim to have.

A lot of conjecture here on your part, i don’t tell people to go away as you implied with great hyperbole, I always give people a sound reason why i don’t do the work on Indian guns anymore. Same reason why other big time builders turn the work away too, it’s not worth it to myself or them in the end and i don’t drive down my value for charity on the mistakes of others.

 

[FlinterNick]

Several years ago I bought at auction an India-made Bess that was owned by a deceased re-enactor who at one time did a Geo. Washington impression for the Delaware River crossing; at least that's what I was told, as they had his clothing outfit. Anyway, the musket is quite high quality, and the barrel measures .74 cal. It's a bit on the heavy side, and the wood is somewhat thick, but it was my 1st India-made gun, introduction to them. I would not hesitate to shoot it live should I wish to. Just sayin'

More than likely its ok to shoot just consider the following when shooting.

The breech plugs are not always thread very well, one of them i literally unscrewed with my bare hands.

There also is almost no shoulder between the face of the plug and the bore, making it more or less a water pipe.

While that have been examples of a few that exploded in New Jersey and Texas, most of those are due to improper loading or use or lack of care.

Here is an example from another page with one that is not breeched very well.

As you can see there is a lot of issues here, the flange style plug with a chambered plug doesn’t really jive well with me as a quality breeched barrel, the breads are shallow and short and the bore has no shoulder.

 

[FlinterNick]

What and where?

Well you did call me uneducated and a self proclaimed expert…. Just a few to start.

And I respectfully hope that you move on from the Indian guns into a better practice.

 

[sturmkatze]

What and where?

You know. You still haven’t answered my question. Who are you?

 

[David Y. Snellen]

Never said they were dangerous, i said garbage, to be more clear…. Very poorly made, thats my opinion, its up to you whether or not you feel my opinion is an informed one, I’ve worked on over 30 of them, and put the breaks on it because the time cost is not worth it to me.

My example was about the intrinsic value of a good rifle or musket that appreciates with investment into to the piece.

There are not many examples of Indian guns selling for more value than a miroku, rifle shoppe or pedersoli.

There was a fella that won on auction a french 1728 and was duped into believing it was a rifle shoppe kit, he paid something like 1100 for it and went around asking and begging for help from myself and others, he was rejected by everyone.

Later discovered to be a middlesex gun.

Indian guns do not hold their value, they simply do not match the investment potential l of other arms.

In the picture below you’ve got an Indian made gun with two touch holes, drilled by whom ever. A barrel band that is jammed on sight tight it cracked, miss aligned screws, frizzen to pan has a 2mm gap.

For a 1100 purchase, this what i call devastating, i wouldn’t put a 400 value on this pile of manure.

Saying no to this job was a no brainer.

I can see by the paint-like finish it is NOT a Loyalist. As I have mentioned before, I owned a MSVTC, Military Heritage and Loyalist. I still have 2 Loyalists and sold the others. My Loyalist have better fit and finish as well as better working locks. The others looked like paint and had 900 pound trigger pulls.

 

[David Y. Snellen]

Personally, and I am not a gunsmith, I think the issues have been dealt with fairly overall. The issues are cost and availability. Many of the India guns made are simply not common reproductions. I have a brunswick from Loyalist. I love the gun. It is pretty and looks close. The trigger pull is heaver than it should be, but I believe it is safe. Would I like a custom brunswick? Sure. but the cost of a custom gun that would make me cry and suck my thumb if I got a scratch on it, wouldn't work for me. I doubt that I will put 2000 rounds in its lifetime through it....probably less than 1000....maybe 500. So I can't justify a 2 to 5,000 gun. I am NOT saying they are not worth it. I understand the hours that go into something (I am a saddlemaker), but I can't justify it for me.

Does a Pedersoli look nicer than most Indian guns? In general, yes. But again, when there are doctor bills and groceries, something has to give.
So I would suggest Loyalist if you are going with Indian guns. Italian or better yet, custom will be better, but you pay for it. I completely understand what Sturmkatze said about it isn't that he said unsafe, just garbage. I get what he means. I don't think my Loyalist are garbage, but the lock work is certainly far from precision.

It is true, you get what you pay for, but I don't believe they are 'pipe bombs" with common sense, nor do I think they are the greatest guns on the planet. Loyalist sells nice looking functional guns, but they will not measure up to a Kibler.
Just my opinion.....

 

[bud in pa]

If all one can afford is an India made gun, at least they are supporting our black powder community. Being on a fixed income I can sympathize with those who buy India made guns.

 

[Commodore Swab]

You know. You still haven’t answered my question. Who are you?

You stated I was insulting, I asked where. I see no reason to tell you who I am, judging by the reactions on here all that would accomplish is getting bad mouthed. I see no desire for that.

 

[sturmkatze]

Personally, and I am not a gunsmith, I think the issues have been dealt with fairly overall. The issues are cost and availability. Many of the India guns made are simply not common reproductions. I have a brunswick from Loyalist. I love the gun. It is pretty and looks close. The trigger pull is heaver than it should be, but I believe it is safe. Would I like a custom brunswick? Sure. but the cost of a custom gun that would make me cry and suck my thumb if I got a scratch on it, wouldn't work for me. I doubt that I will put 2000 rounds in its lifetime through it....probably less than 1000....maybe 500. So I can't justify a 2 to 5,000 gun. I am NOT saying they are not worth it. I understand the hours that go into something (I am a saddlemaker), but I can't justify it for me.

Does a Pedersoli look nicer than most Indian guns? In general, yes. But again, when there are doctor bills and groceries, something has to give.
So I would suggest Loyalist if you are going with Indian guns. Italian or better yet, custom will be better, but you pay for it. I completely understand what Sturmkatze said about it isn't that he said unsafe, just garbage. I get what he means. I don't think my Loyalist are garbage, but the lock work is certainly far from precision.

It is true, you get what you pay for, but I don't believe they are 'pipe bombs" with common sense, nor do I think they are the greatest guns on the planet. Loyalist sells nice looking functional guns, but they will not measure up to a Kibler.
Just my opinion.....

Did I say that? I do not remember saying that they were garbage. I have said guys will do their uniform before their gun.

 

[sturmkatze]

You stated I was insulting, I asked where. I see no reason to tell you who I am, judging by the reactions on here all that would accomplish is getting bad mouthed. I see no desire for that.

You’ve been wildly insulting. Nick pointed out one place where you were insulting. There were others. Your comments and this here, lead me to believe that you’re a troll just out to cause trouble. Maybe not. L

I don’t hide behind a forum name. We see that you do.

 

[billraby]

Commodore Swab is very insulting. It comes across as petulant and whiny. Mike Brooks is insulting also, but he does it with class. It is rather entertaining.

 

[FlinterNick]

If all one can afford is an India made gun, at least they are supporting our black powder community. Being on a fixed income I can sympathize with those who buy India made guns.

I agree to a point, there is always a way to do better than Indian made. You can get a very nice used musket for a deal which is not much more costly than an Indian made arm.

A lot of gunmakers make deals too like a layaway without interest or forfeiture.
But if you must purchase an Indian. Made arm, i highly recommend making the trip to hand select your piece. Check the stock grain for runoff, test the lock.

Ask to remove the barrel and check it out, some are welded at the breech with the tang welded to the to of the barrel which means the actual breech plug is around 5 inches up, you’ll see a seam underneath, i woudln’t buy that.

Make your selections wise, as always Buy American ! Buy form the Rifle shoppe, buy from Mike Brooks, buy from Kevin Dougherty, buy from Bobby Hoyt etc etc.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Commodore Swab is very insulting. It comes across as petulant and whiny. Mike Brooks is insulting also, but he does it with class. It is rather entertaining.

I just tell it like it is. Most folks can't deal with the truth.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

You stated I was insulting, I asked where. I see no reason to tell you who I am, judging by the reactions on here all that would accomplish is getting bad mouthed. I see no desire for that.

He'll, I've been in business doing this full time since 1996. I make no secret of who I am. I have always been overwhelmed with work. The truth always works.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I had a fellow Club member Shoot an Indian Dragoon(sp,) at the range. I have to tell you he did a beautiful job on it. Very pretty job. And it went off really quick. I know he must have put hours into it. For some it works out well I guess.