minie ball 1st shot issues

[damron]

My PH .577 has twice done strange things on the first shot from a cold clean barrel.Once the powder just burned around the loose bullet then today shot #1 hit sideways.Subsequent groups after shot one are nice round ones under 3" at 100 yards.The load has been 50-60g of Triple Seven FF and the same RCBS PH58560 bullet.

George

 

[rduncan]

Sounds like once the barrel is warmed up after the first shot, things tighten up. (That's why some matches have a "cold barrel" shoot to start things off.) Could also have something to do with the diameter of your rounds; I run all of mine through a .577 sizing die after lubing them to ensure uniformity.

 

[damron]

My bullets are .575 dia so that may be the issue.I have used .577-.579 and they shot no better.I just wonder why it doesn't do it every time.

George

 

[mooman76]

I'm thinking because you got that fouling shot that tighten things up a hair. Most guns shoot different after the first shot, even smokeless.

 

[Big John]

Breaking in a PH Musketoon at the moment myself... keyholing may be non pure lead or loose minie. Mic barrel land to land... use 1-2 one thousands under bore.

 

[rduncan]

You can get a .577 sizer from DGW just be sure that you lube the bullets first. I've had no accuracy issues with either of my rifles; the old Zoli's had a reputation for being a bit loose but mine does OK.
Like Mooman said, it sure sounds like a warmup issue and possibly undersize rounds. Also make sure that the skirt is uniform all the way around the base of the bullet...if that's uneven or compressed your accuracy will be affected.

 

[LRB]

Sound like the minie skirt isn't expanding enough, and once the first shot fouls the bore a bit, that causes enough restriction to raise the extra pressure needed to open it. Just guessing.

 

[damron]

pure lead testing 5BHN on my Cabine Tree tester.I have no complaints accuracy wise with my load just the two odd first shots.The fouling probably helps center it better before takeoff.

here is the tipper(taped over after i went down to see what happened) and the next five at 100 that are its typical grouping.

 

[jamesthomas]

Thats a good group for a 100 yards! I can't see a target good enough at 100 yards to even attempt to shoot a group like that. Even 75 yds is a pain. .

 

[damron]

here is three consecutive groups at 200 yards with the PH 2 band.Thats what baffles me as it such a good shooter and it doesn't always do it.Sometimes the first shot it right in the center of the group.Other times(more often than not) its a bit out.its just the two times it went haywire.

 

[rduncan]

With all due respects, I'd be happy to be able to see well enough to shoot a group like that at 50 yards! But it supports my theory that it's "cold bore" effect. Not much you can do about that unless you want to pop a blank charge first to foul the barrel.
And another factor is how much the rifle has been used because there is a certain amount of break-in necessary to polish the bore and improve accuracy.

 

[damron]

With all due respects, I'd be happy to be able to see well enough to shoot a group like that at 50 yards! But it supports my theory that it's "cold bore" effect. Not much you can do about that unless you want to pop a blank charge first to foul the barrel.
And another factor is how much the rifle has been used because there is a certain amount of break-in necessary to polish the bore and improve accuracy.

I think you are correct.

The rifle has about 600 shots by me and was used when i got it and the bore is a it polished.I just thought it was strange thing happening and was curious if other had had similar experience.

George

 

[59sharps]

shot a ph musket and musketoon for 15 yr. Now my son and I both shoot a colt, he also shoots a CS Richmond. ON ind targets first shot from a clean barrel is always between the frames. Never know where it may go. nature of the beast. we shoot only soft lead sized .002 under bore.Its something you have to live with.

 

[ian45662]

I have never seen anything like it. I know some guns will shoot a little different out of a clean bore but I have never seen one shoot sideways like that from a clean bore. The biggest difference you should see is 2" TOPS. I can think of 2 things to try different. Either try and find some goex 3F and/or a lighter minie and I will tell you why. I dont think the skirt is not expanding properly one because the powder is to weak and by that I mean it does not necessarily explode like real black powder. 2 the skirt on the minie you are shooting is to thick..... Feel free to take my advice with a grain of salt because I dont know how your powder ranks with goex 3F and without looking at your minie I cant tell how thick the skirt is. It is worth a shot in my opinion.

 

[damron]

I have never seen anything like it. I know some guns will shoot a little different out of a clean bore but I have never seen one shoot sideways like that from a clean bore. The biggest difference you should see is 2" TOPS. I can think of 2 things to try different. Either try and find some goex 3F and/or a lighter minie and I will tell you why. I dont think the skirt is not expanding properly one because the powder is to weak and by that I mean it does not necessarily explode like real black powder. 2 the skirt on the minie you are shooting is to thick..... Feel free to take my advice with a grain of salt because I dont know how your powder ranks with goex 3F and without looking at your minie I cant tell how thick the skirt is. It is worth a shot in my opinion.

I have shot Goex FFF and FF and also the lyman 575213 and 575602 as well as the Blue-Grey target bullet and had better accuracy with the smaller PH58560 bullet and Triple Seven.I had a spare PH58560 i just had opened to .577 and a deeper integral base plug made and it shot about 6" at 100 yards.

 

[ken.clements]

My PH .577 has twice done strange things on the first shot from a cold clean barrel.Once the powder just burned around the loose bullet then today shot #1 hit sideways.Subsequent groups after shot one are nice round ones under 3" at 100 yards.The load has been 50-60g of Triple Seven FF and the same RCBS PH58560 bullet.

George

I use the same Minie, same Rifle, and 57,5 grains Swiss 2.
The fouling shots are just as important as the oil shots to get any axtra oil out of the nipple and where the powder sits (2 or 3 caps should do it). The Fouling shot may have something to do with sealing the following Minie's at ignition......
Just sink the first shot in the burm.
A sideways Minie is a blown skirt. Probably poured to cold. (take a look of the first 5 Minie's when you pour at the skirt. You will see a very small ripple where the lead meets itself in the mould on the Pin that forms the hollow base). This is not good and they should be put back into the pot.

 

[damron]

My bullets are pretty uniform i believe.I cast quite a bit and am pretty careful on quality.If it was a blown skirt why wouldn't it ever happen in the middle of a string with a fouled barrel in the last 500 or so shots fired?

Of course anything can happen

George

 

[ken.clements]

My bullets are pretty uniform i believe.I cast quite a bit and am pretty careful on quality.If it was a blown skirt why wouldn't it ever happen in the middle of a string with a fouled barrel in the last 500 or so shots fired?

Of course anything can happen

George

could happen anytime....does it always happen on the first shot? Or was this a one time thing? If it was / is a one time thing, blame it a fluctual heavy duty side wind that was so fast no one saw or felt it :grin:
Maybe one slipped through the inspection process? :idunno:

one or two flops in over 500 shots.....I would love to have that

:bow:

 

[damron]

both times the issue was the first shot.I guess i should be happy it was 2 out of 500 like you said!!

George

 

[Dean2]

This is two cold bore experiences out of how many with this gun. It is possible the sideways minnie was a blown skirt, that just happened to be on the first shot. As careful as you are with the casting, you may never see another blown skirt. It is also possible you didn't get the bore completely dry, the two cold bore minnies were a hair undersize etc etc.

If it was doing this on every cold bore, then you can work at figuring it out. 2 out of 50 cold bores, it is basically a guess on what caused a fluke result.

All in, no one ever shoots the cold bore shot in a match, so as long as the rest are shooting as good as the targets in this post, smile and enjoy.