Misfire...

[David W.]

Dave
NRA Distinguished Expert ML Rifle

P.S.: We're not all telling you all of these things to be mean to you...We all just want to see and HEAR that you and Dad are having fun making smoke! I think that I speak for all of us here on this forum. No one has any ill feelings towards you or your Dad, we just want you to enjoy this great hobby of ours, that's all. So please take our sage counsel to heart and call some of us if you feel like you need to!
[/quote]

I agree. We are not being mean, we want you to have fun at your sport.

I, myself have over thirty years experience in black powder. For the last 15 years or so, that's all I have been shooting.

I know we are only internet people, but we are REAL people and are here to guide new people into the BP sport so that hopefully, it does not die out to those gall darn worhtless in-lines!

 

[longcruise]

luie b, your description of your problem is a classic example of goombah in the ignition area of your rifle. Your dry patches before loading cannot reach this area.

Your rifle is probably breeched with a long plug extending deeper into the barrel than most typical plugs. The plug then has a smaller diameter hole drilled into the face of the plug. The powder drum is threaded through the side of the barrel and plug so as to reach this smaller channel inside the plug.

This is a much criticised design feature, but for myself, I like it. It has a higher safety factor and works just fine as long as it is kept clean. This not some new fangled way of breeching an ml. This method has been used in Europe for many years.

There is no "black powder solvent" made that will clean this area out. In fact, it will combine with the fouling left there and that, along with any oil you may use in the gun after cleaning, are the source of the "goombah". The Hoppes makes a pretty good patch lube but has very little ability to dissolve bp (or pyrodex) fouling. You should be using water to clean your gun. Below is a quote from the Thompson Center owners manual on how to clean the rifle after shooting. You can download the entire manual from this page;

Link

The recommended method of cleaning is as follows: Fill a pan with very
hot soapy water. Submerge the breech of the barrel in the water and push a
wet patch down the barrel on the end of your cleaning rod. Pump the rod and
patch up and down in the barrel. This will draw water into the barrel and flush
it out through the nipple hole. When the barrel is clean, wipe off the excess
water and set the barrel aside to dry. Fouling on the stock, lock and exterior
parts should be wiped off with an oily cloth or T/C’s Wonder Cloth saturated
with Natural Lube 1000+ . When the barrel has dried, either oil it well (inside
and out) or, in keeping with the all natural approach of seasoning your bore,
wipe it with a patch saturated with Natural Lube 1000+. Reassemble the
firearm.

If your barrel is not easily removed from the stock, you can get a fitting that goes on in place of the nipple with a plastic hose attached. Put the end of the hose in the water and pump the water in and out.

Some (including myself) have stopped using extremely hot water and opt for warm.

The Pyrodex is a bit harder to ignite than bp so it does contribute to your problem, but with a clean dry chamber area you should have no problem.

Hope that helps

 

[longcruise]

Also, they don't mention it, but you should remove the nipple using the water cleaning method.

 

[rafterob]

You have gotten some really good advice here. Proper proceedures will assure that using water does not rust the barrel. using hot water helps to assure that risidual heat will evaporate any moisture your patches miss. Some run a little alcohol through to dissipate the water. Oiling the barrel will keep it from rusting.A couple other tricks I've used to flush out barrels. 1) if you have (and can use) a laundry or utility sink,get one of those cheap rubber hand showers that slip on over the faucet. Cut off the shower head and attach a semiflexible tube that will fit in your barrel. Hold the gun over the sink, being careful to note where the nipple is pointing, and turn on the hot water. Flush it out well, then use the bore brush and rinse out well.2)What I use now (because I am banned from cleaning my rifles in the house)is a gallon jug with a push pump that is used for dispensing detergent. I slipped some clear flexible tubing over the end of the pump and attached the afore mentioned semiflexible tubing on the end. I fill up the jug with hot soapy water and proceed as in the first example. A guy here that posted awhile back had rigged up a brush/wand/sprayer contraption that looked real cool-maybe a tad overboard but just goes to show what the human imagination can come up with.

 

[luieb45]

I can't take my gun apart to clean the barrel out from both ends. It doesn't come out like that. As far as soap and water goes my dad won't let me do that if I did use black powder because he believes that it would rust up the gun and the people on this forum might not know what their talking about because they're just people on the internet.

I have been using hoppes no. 9 for a while but recently switched to butch's bore shine which works better.
Am I understanding you do not use water to clean your rifle? What do you use to clean it with?

I know you say you use Pydodex for your own reasons, and that's fine. Let me tell you three problems wth Pyrodex. It produces perchorates when you fire it, which is highly toxic. It fouls worse than black powder and just as corrosive. It also is harder to ignite.

If you do not clean your rifle out with water, you need to use something like moose milk and you need to really saturate the bore and run several patches through. You also need to remove the nipple and clean out the breech end. You may be surprised on what type of gunk you may find there. If you are cleaning with petrolium based oils, that is verboten, very verboten.


At least try what other people here have said. Clean it with water, at least once anyway. We all clean our rifles wth water and do not have a rust problem.

 

[luieb45]

I can't take my gun apart to clean the barrel out from both ends. It doesn't come out like that.

What is your gun?
A Traditions? A CVA? kentucky,hawkin. Most have a specific name. What is it?

You want my phone# ? I'm a real person, and I've been messin with BP guns for only 25 years,,
too bad your dad doesn't know about BP guns,,

It is a traditions kentucky .50 cal caplock like I mentioned in my first post. I haven't been using water to clean and I am fearful of trying because just using it once could most definitely be the ruin of my great conditioned gun that I bought for practically a steal but I want to use it for quite a while.

 

[luieb45]

So if I were to clean a gun shot with pyrodex and I wanted to clean with water would I use cold water with what kind of soap? I have a ml pistol that was given to me and I have shot it and can't hit anything with it outside of 10 yards. The gun has seen better days and the bore can't get any worse looking. What would I do if I didn't have any nipple flushes or anything? Also tell me more about the alcohol flush through the nipple thing. What kind do you use? How much is needed? How do you get it out of there once it has done its work?

 

[David W.]

I can't take my gun apart to clean the barrel out from both ends. It doesn't come out like that.

What is your gun?
A Traditions? A CVA? kentucky,hawkin. Most have a specific name. What is it?

You want my phone# ? I'm a real person, and I've been messin with BP guns for only 25 years,,
too bad your dad doesn't know about BP guns,,

It is a traditions kentucky .50 cal caplock like I mentioned in my first post. I haven't been using water to clean and I am fearful of trying because just using it once could most definitely be the ruin of my great conditioned gun that I bought for practically a steal but I want to use it for quite a while.

Pease, beleive all the post here that have tried to help you. You ARE NOT going to ruin your rifle by cleaning it with water.

 

[necchi]

That gun comes apart.
Take the tang screw out and seperate the two halves, the wood will stay on the front part of the barrel.
You clean like this; only no need for boiling water: http://castbullet.com/misc/clean.htm

The alchohol acts like iso-heet for the gas tank, it breaks down any remaining water so it evaporates,,leaving the barrel dry.

I give up,,I'm begining to think we'er being spoofed, punked, or what ever ya wanna call it. I could break that gun down, clean it (lock too) and re-assemble it (lubed) in 15 min.

If you don't want to properly clean your gun, it is entirely up to you. I wish you luck friend.

 

[fredrader]

I give up,,I'm begining to think we'er being spoofed, punked, or what ever ya wanna call it. I could break that gun down, clean it (lock too) and re-assemble it (lubed) in 15 min.

If you don't want to properly clean your gun, it is entirely up to you. I wish you luck friend.

Dude,I was getting ready to post up the same thing..That is scary

 

[Zonie]

Luie_b
On the off chance that this isn't a spoof, take the other peoples word for it.
Nothing dissolves the fouling left by black powder or Pyrodex as well as water.

The addition of some dishwashing soap also helps dissolve any grease or oils left from the patching.

Here again, your dad may say I'm another Web person that doesn't know much but I have over 38 years of experiance with shootng and cleaning black powder arms.
I also own over 14 custom built muzzleloading rifles that are worth at least $1000 each and I clean every one of them with soapy water.

Unlike some of the others, I remove my barrels from the stock for cleaning. I do NOT remove their breech plugs but the nipple is always removed before I use the "breech in the bucket of soapy water and pump the ramrod/cleaning patch up and down the bore" method.
Following this pumping I always dry the bore by running several dry patches down the bore until they come out dry.

With the barrel out of the stock, I can place the breech over my kitchen gas range to heat it up and dry out any water that has gotten into the breech threads.
This followed by a wet wipe of Barricade gun oil in the bore and applied to the exposed breech threads (or down the nipple hole) protects everything from rusting.

Over 38 years of experience says it works.

By the way, black powder fouling and Pyrodex fouling do NOT dissolve in ANY oil based cleaner.
It just soaks up the oil and becomes a hard to remove plug. This is very likely what you picked out of your flame channel hole.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I can't take my gun apart to clean the barrel out from both ends. It doesn't come out like that.

What is your gun?
A Traditions? A CVA? kentucky,hawkin. Most have a specific name. What is it?

You want my phone# ? I'm a real person, and I've been messin with BP guns for only 25 years,,
too bad your dad doesn't know about BP guns,,

It is a traditions kentucky .50 cal caplock like I mentioned in my first post. I haven't been using water to clean and I am fearful of trying because just using it once could most definitely be the ruin of my great conditioned gun that I bought for practically a steal but I want to use it for quite a while.

The ONLY thing your gun is conditioned for is to FAIL! Fail to fire that is! This thread has proved to ALL who have tried to help you from the beginning (probably the day you registered on this forum) that you haven't listened to any of the advice on cleaning the rifle. Until you do, you might as well throw the gun in the dumpster, for it will be a miracle if it ever goes bang again. Furthermore, if you don't take care of it properly, IMHO you don't deserve to be using it. For a lapse in cleanliness could result in hang-fires and a lapse in safety. If you're not doing what we tell you as far as cleaning the rifle goes, only God knows what else you're doing wrong.

Bottom line: CLEAN THE DAMN RIFLE WITH HOT WATER & SOAP AND PUMP IT TILL YOUR ARMS HURT OR JUST THROW THE PIECE OF CRAP AWAY NOW!

There, I wrote what EVERYBODY ELSE was thinking!

Maybe there is some chain-yanking going-on?

Dave

 

[R.M.]

Thanks Dave

 

[Zonie]

Luie:
If you've been doing a good job of trying to find a good answer I'm sure you have gone to several different muzzleloading sites and asked your question about using water to clean your gun.

I realize I shouldn't be thinking but, I think you should ask your dad the following question,

"Dad, after visiting several different muzzleloading sites on the web, how come all of the members on every one of them has said we should be cleaning the bores with water?

You would think that someone out there would be telling me that water will rust my barrel and that I should not use it, wouldn't you?

Yah, some folks don't use water but they use stuff with water in it.
More than one person said that the expensive stuff made by companies is just water with some soap added to it.

Even the ones that suggest using alcohol are either talking about rubbing alcohol that is mainly water or they are using the alcohol to absorb the left over water in the barrel so it evaporates fast.

How come, dad?"

 

[bwhoffman]

signed on in june of last year. Been asking about cleaning solvents and barrel cleaning ever since.

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.

What he really needs to do is hook up with some 'ol codger thats been in the game a spell and pick his brain and learn the ways.
Just like most of us have.

 

[luieb45]

How do you clean a gun with water if you can't take the barrel off? I am going to clean my pistol that way next time I go shooting. Then if I get it cleaned with no problems then next time I'll bring my old beater .45 kasnar and clean that with water. Is there a way to clean a gun without removing the barrel using water? I don't want to have to take my gun apart every time because I have heard from people on the forum that own traditions kentuckys that removing the barrel is a bear. Also is there any specific soap to use when cleaning?

 

[bwhoffman]

You OBVIOUSLY have NOT READ any of the replies to your orginal question.

if you had, you would have seen in the post I replied the first time, as well as a few other gents here,...something that went like this...

"You can purchase a cleaning device that will replace the nipple with a fitting and poly tube. TOTW has them."

 

[luieb45]

I can't take my gun apart to clean the barrel out from both ends. It doesn't come out like that.

What is your gun?
A Traditions? A CVA? kentucky,hawkin. Most have a specific name. What is it?

You want my phone# ? I'm a real person, and I've been messin with BP guns for only 25 years,,
too bad your dad doesn't know about BP guns,,

It is a traditions kentucky .50 cal caplock like I mentioned in my first post. I haven't been using water to clean and I am fearful of trying because just using it once could most definitely be the ruin of my great conditioned gun that I bought for practically a steal but I want to use it for quite a while.

The ONLY thing your gun is conditioned for is to FAIL! Fail to fire that is! This thread has proved to ALL who have tried to help you from the beginning (probably the day you registered on this forum) that you haven't listened to any of the advice on cleaning the rifle. Until you do, you might as well throw the gun in the dumpster, for it will be a miracle if it ever goes bang again. Furthermore, if you don't take care of it properly, IMHO you don't deserve to be using it. For a lapse in cleanliness could result in hang-fires and a lapse in safety. If you're not doing what we tell you as far as cleaning the rifle goes, only God knows what else you're doing wrong.

Bottom line: CLEAN THE DAMN RIFLE WITH HOT WATER & SOAP AND PUMP IT TILL YOUR ARMS HURT OR JUST THROW THE PIECE OF CRAP AWAY NOW!

There, I wrote what EVERYBODY ELSE was thinking!

Maybe there is some chain-yanking going-on?

Dave

Sir, my gun is no piece of crap :cursing: . It is my favorite gun in my cabinet. If it is such a piece of crap how come I dropped a doe from 50 yards with it this year? People like you are starting to chase people away from this sport. YOU need to understand that it's not a good thing to listen to whatever people on the internet say all the time. Yes, I know that there is probably a 99% chance here that you guys are telling me the right thing to do. But sometimes you can get burned that way and my favorite gun get ruined.

 

[rafterob]

I believe he was insinuating it will be a POC if not cleaned properly.Please ignore those posts that appear to lose their sensitivity.There have been way too many sincere posts to your topic to let 1 poster spoil your day. The methods I suggested earlier are done without removing the barrel. As others have posted, do remove the nipple and clean out screw before flushing out the barrel. As for alcohol, after you have run a few dry patches (after the soap and water flush) pour a small amount of rubbing alcohol( about 1/4 ounce) down the barrel and follow it with a dry patch to push it out the nipple end. You may want to "pump" it a few times to assure it has sprayed it all out. Let it evaporate a minute or two before running your oil patch down. You are right to keep asking questions until you understand exactly what you are reading. You are in the right place for some great knowledge. As a side note; you may want to search NMLRA and follow some links to see if there is a muzzleloading club near by that you and your father could visit. You will find an interesting group of people who are all willing to share, help and educate anyone interested in this sport.

 

[luieb45]

I can't take my gun apart to clean the barrel out from both ends. It doesn't come out like that. As far as soap and water goes my dad won't let me do that if I did use black powder because he believes that it would rust up the gun and the people on this forum might not know what their talking about because they're just people on the internet.

Well, your Dad is right, we are just people on the internet, but some of us have been shooting these old guns for 40 years, or more. So, that makes us just some people on the internet that have lots of experience.

How long have you and your Dad been shooting ML guns?

I built my first ML rifle at age 18, in 1967, so there is a time line for my experience.

Pyrodex is MUCH more corrosive than black powder. IMHO, it will eat your bore, just like the old corrosive primers that went out of production in the 1950's.

Black powder is NOT corrosive, until is absorbs ambient moisture. Pyrodex, on the other hand, becomes extremely corrosive as soon as it is fired.

The old military bore cleaners work ok for cleaning Pyrodex fouled bores, but IMHO,soap and water, with diligent cleaning, will do just as well.

You don't have to remove the breech from the barrel. Assuming that you have a half stock rifle with barrel keys, just remove the barrel from the stock, remove the nipple, and place the breech end of the barrel in a large coffee can, or something similar, about half full of soap and water.

I'm one of those that feels the so called clean out screw should not be removed, just the nipple.

Run a tight fitting patch into the bore until it reaches the breech, then pump the rod up and down to pull water into the bore, then out again.

This cleans every nook and cranny in the bore and breech.

Be sure to get down into the small diameter cavity in the patent breech.

Dry well and oil.

You can do what your Dad tells you, and ruin your gun, or you can explain to your dad that some of us have LOTS of experience that you can take to the bank.

God bless

So I can just take the barrel off the gun and take out the nipple and just flush the water from where the nipple used to be? That sounds good. I know I will be able to get the area I can reach with the ramrod but how do I dry out the rest? I can take out the screw on the side of the little drum under the nipple and dry that area with a pipe cleaner but aren't I missing something or is that it?