Moravian inspired build

[appalichian hunter]

Hard for me to see this one as a lion. It’s not the “Lion and Lamb” rifle being re-created here.

My misteak, the only one I have seen is the lion one up until now.Learn something new every day. Thanks for setting me on the right path.

 

[ekettenburg]

Laubach's German lock is as good as it gets, if you can get one. Miles better than any Davis lock, no offense intended.

This one is not an Albrecht, it's "attributed." It's not signed. It's a spectacular rifle, in fact I like it probably more than the lion/lamb rifle which imho is most likely Oerter.

Fwiw, I've come to view this potentially as an early Peter Neihart (not a Moravian). It makes more sense to me at the present time, but then that's just my opinion. We've all got one!

This gun was basically just a buttstock before extreme restoration. It is very difficult to get accurate information, now, as to what was actually still present vs. what was added and 'restored.' There are multiple stories circulating.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

Laubach's German lock is as good as it gets, if you can get one. Miles better than any Davis lock, no offense intended.

This one is not an Albrecht, it's "attributed." It's not signed. It's a spectacular rifle, in fact I like it probably more than the lion/lamb rifle which imho is most likely Oerter.

Fwiw, I've come to view this potentially as an early Peter Neihart (not a Moravian). It makes more sense to me at the present time, but then that's just my opinion. We've all got one!

This gun was basically just a buttstock before extreme restoration. It is very difficult to get accurate information, now, as to what was actually still present vs. what was added and 'restored.' There are multiple stories circulating.

Yea that lock looks really nice but $$$!

You are a radical sir! May I ask why you believe it is potentially a Neihart? And why you believe the lion/lamb might be an Oerter?

I found this statement about the Albrecht (attributed) rifle you might find interesting:
"The trigger guard, side plate, lockplate and ramrod entry ferrule are, in fact, original to the rifle. Although it is stated otherwise in. The first Moravian book, I spoke with Judson Brennan, who did the restoration of this rifle. He kindly informed me of the errors in the book. The rifle was found in England and it was probably taken there as a war trophy during or after the American Revolution. The barrel tang for hooked breech was also on the rifle when it was discovered there. The lock is a very good professional reconversion, but the lock plate was on the rifle when it was found, but it had been converted to percussion."

Source of the statement:
https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/search?q=Moravian

 

[ekettenburg]

I've been able to compare the lion/lamb and the 'Griffin' Oerter rifle side by side and I've come to view them as certainly being carved by the same man. I realize some would say, "Well, Albrecht trained Oerter so maybe Albrecht carved L/L and later on Oerter carved the Griffin rifle when he ran the CS shop." That's a valid point, but I simply believe Oerter carved them both. We only have a small window into Oerter's work for a couple of years prior to the outbreak of the War, but there is nothing signed for the near-decade he was running the shop after Albrecht's departure and prior to the signed and dated rifles. Having studied old Northampton Co. for a very long time now, it was clear that style and design was rapidly changing and over in Allentown, Johannes Moll was a very established gunsmith who was approximately the same age as Albrecht. How he may have been influencing arms development in the region is unknown but it seems clear to me that after Oerter died, the CS shop slowly fizzled out and where Albrehct and Oerter may have been the 'influencers' (hahahaha) in the region before the War, Moll and those he probably trained to some extent (Herman and John Rupp, possibly Neihart also) were the drivers of style in the entire western portion of the county after the War and into the 19th century (the portion that became Lehigh Co.). Anyway just a roundabout way of saying I view the L/L and the Griffin rifle as being the same guy, and Oerter signed and dated one of them.

The two tailed dog is a different story. It's unfortunate that it's been much more worn and restored, which sometimes blurs comparison. I am aware of Jud's information that was relayed above - the problem is that multiple people have relayed information from Jud Brennan about the restoration over the years, including the original owner who had the resto work done, and the story has changed over time. So all I can say is that I've been told multiple stories as to what was original and what was replaced and I don't particularly know what to believe. I simply don't see it as being the same hand as the L/L or other Moravian-attributed rifles but it's simply a "gut feel" on my part viewing it as potentially a preWar Peter Neihart. Neihart was very creative, probably more so than the Molls or the Rupps, and seemed willing to vary his style more than others. Unfortunately the rifle is unsigned so until another signed one turns up we're hopelessly doomed to speculate!

 

[rich pierce]

The two tailed dog gun looks different in architecture than the CS (Christians Spring)-attributed guns to me. Of course people argue that gunmakers can work in a variety of styles, yet it’s clear that most strongly attributed or signed CS guns adhered closely to a pattern. I think the collector of the two tailed dog gun believed it was earlier than may be supportable, but stuck to calling it very early. Great gun.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

I've been able to compare the lion/lamb and the 'Griffin' Oerter rifle side by side and I've come to view them as certainly being carved by the same man. I realize some would say, "Well, Albrecht trained Oerter so maybe Albrecht carved L/L and later on Oerter carved the Griffin rifle when he ran the CS shop." That's a valid point, but I simply believe Oerter carved them both. We only have a small window into Oerter's work for a couple of years prior to the outbreak of the War, but there is nothing signed for the near-decade he was running the shop after Albrecht's departure and prior to the signed and dated rifles. Having studied old Northampton Co. for a very long time now, it was clear that style and design was rapidly changing and over in Allentown, Johannes Moll was a very established gunsmith who was approximately the same age as Albrecht. How he may have been influencing arms development in the region is unknown but it seems clear to me that after Oerter died, the CS shop slowly fizzled out and where Albrehct and Oerter may have been the 'influencers' (hahahaha) in the region before the War, Moll and those he probably trained to some extent (Herman and John Rupp, possibly Neihart also) were the drivers of style in the entire western portion of the county after the War and into the 19th century (the portion that became Lehigh Co.). Anyway just a roundabout way of saying I view the L/L and the Griffin rifle as being the same guy, and Oerter signed and dated one of them.

The two tailed dog is a different story. It's unfortunate that it's been much more worn and restored, which sometimes blurs comparison. I am aware of Jud's information that was relayed above - the problem is that multiple people have relayed information from Jud Brennan about the restoration over the years, including the original owner who had the resto work done, and the story has changed over time. So all I can say is that I've been told multiple stories as to what was original and what was replaced and I don't particularly know what to believe. I simply don't see it as being the same hand as the L/L or other Moravian-attributed rifles but it's simply a "gut feel" on my part viewing it as potentially a preWar Peter Neihart. Neihart was very creative, probably more so than the Molls or the Rupps, and seemed willing to vary his style more than others. Unfortunately the rifle is unsigned so until another signed one turns up we're hopelessly doomed to speculate!

Fascinating ekettenburg! Thanks for sharing your viewpoint and experience with these guns.

 

[hanshi]

I once referred to myself and several siblings as "Bohemians". An aunt was not happy with that statement and told us that "We are Moravian not Bohemiam". For us who may not know,what is a Moravian style rifle?

You were very lucky; I was just called "weird".

 

[appalichian hunter]

Were were Heathens and damn proud of it. Keep us posted on yer build Jack.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

Were were Heathens and damn proud of it. Keep us posted on yer build Jack.

I sure will. I'm heading over to Jeff's shop this weekend.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Eutycus,
Moravians called themselves "The Brethren" and were a Protestant religious sect that originated in central Europe. I believe they had strong connections with the earlier Hussite sect founded in what is now the Czech Republic. They were heavily subsidized by Count Zinzendorf who encouraged a strong missionary movement within the group. During the 18th century, many Moravians emigrated to Pennsylvania and set up communities near Bethlehem. Their communities were characterized by planned and tightly controlled social and economic systems. They included gun making as one of their trades largely due to demand from their missionary work with American Indians. Moravian "style" guns typically have very strong Germanic features with thick wrists and butt stocks, sometimes the butt stock has a step like many German jaeger rifles, well executed and pretty sophisticated baroque and rococo relief carving, and a high level of workmanship overall. The two best known Moravian gunsmiths were Andreas Albrecht and his apprentice, Christian Oerter. They established the small gun shop at Christian's Spring near Nazareth, PA. Today, that small shop has an out sized influence on our long rifle making mainly because there are some important surviving guns and the Moravians kept excellent records. However, I get the impression from some of that documentation and the social and economic context surrounding the shop, that despite being small, the shop had a wide reputation for quality work at the time.

dave

 

[Sooty Scot]

Right this one has some kind of two tailed dog. Some really great photos here:
https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/search?q=Moravian

I'm having trouble seeing that 2nd "tail" as originating from the dog. To me, it looks as if it was something behind the dog's butt. What's clearly the dog's (primary?) tail is pointed but the 2nd appears clubbed (more lion-like),

 

[kipcarter]

Very interesting- doing that layout really pays off.
I am certainly not schooled in any manner about these rifles so I’m just thinking out loud here. I wonder if a Jaeger style lock might work as well since It has a strong banana curve. Also, since the Moravians were German speaking , I wonder if that style might be somewhat appropriate?
(BTW I have that Early American Davis lock on a rifle I made 30 years ago and it’s my favorite lock I think).
As an interesting side note, there is a restored, original Moravian settlement about 30 miles from where I live now which I just learned about. It’s called Old Salem and was founded by Moravians who came down the Old Wagon Road from Bethlehem PA in 1754 or so, just prior to the outbreak of hostilities down here in North Carolina of the French and Indian War. From the pictures I saw on the internet it reminds me if Colonial Williamsburg. I will be visiting it soon and checking out the Gunsmith shop. Hopefully they have a Moravian type rifle on display!
Looking forward to your continued postings!
-Bob

Old Salem is a wonderful place to visit. They made beautiful long rifles there !

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The Moravian communities at Bethabara and Old Salem, NC were connected with the communities in PA. Brethren were sent up and down the "Great Wagon" road between them to fill various trades and needs in each community.

dave

 

[ekettenburg]

Maybe it's supposed to be a leopard or a cheetah or something? Frankly I don't really think it looks like a dog, and it doesn't look like a lion either compared to the very blatant lion on the L/L rifle. Who knows! I don't remember who started calling it the 'two tailed dog,' I think Stan Hollenbaugh was the first guy I heard use that term at least 15+ years ago or more. The name stuck, though.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

Meanwhile back at the shop...

Today we measured and marked center lines for the placement of the barrel and butt plate with cast off.
We removed the breech plug
and draw filed the side flats of the barrel.
Then we worked on removing the wood at the breech to drop the barrel down.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

You almost need a drumroll!

 

[dave_person]

Hi Hatchet-Jack,
That will be a fine rifle. Before I cut off the top of the barrel channel, I usually cut a "T" shaped groove down the barrel channel with a dado cutter set for the narrowest flat dimension on the bottom and to the minimum depth of the barrel channel. Then I set the dado cutter again for the narrowest width of the channel and cut a down to the minimum depth of the side flats. That removes 90% of the wood. Then I cut off the top of the barrel channel and inlet the breech as you show. Now I can set the barrel into the stock a little ways allowing me to get a good tracing of the profile of the side flats. Then I can accurately cut that outline down a 1/4" or so deep, remove the corners of the "T" with a gouge and I am about where I start using my octagonal barrel floats and scrapers to finish the job.

dave

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

Hi Hatchet-Jack,
That will be a fine rifle. Before I cut off the top of the barrel channel, I usually cut a "T" shaped groove down the barrel channel with a dado cutter set for the narrowest flat dimension on the bottom and to the minimum depth of the barrel channel. Then I set the dado cutter again for the narrowest width of the channel and cut a down to the minimum depth of the side flats. That removes 90% of the wood. Then I cut off the top of the barrel channel and inlet the breech as you show. Now I can set the barrel into the stock a little ways allowing me to get a good tracing of the profile of the side flats. Then I can accurately cut that outline down a 1/4" or so deep, remove the corners of the "T" with a gouge and I am about where I start using my octagonal barrel floats and scrapers to finish the job.

dave

Thanks Dave. For this build my friend and teacher Jeff Talbert is going to teach me his technique to cut the barrel channel by hand. I want to learn how to do it by hand on this build then I will most likely learn a technique as you described above on subsequent builds. As the saying goes "You have to know the rules before you break them!". Thanks for sharing your steps. I hope you will post a more step by step sometime with some pictures or maybe this process would be in your book?

Jack

 

[dave_person]

Hi Jack,
You have a good teacher. Jeff is a very fine gun maker. As I frequently write, "there are always different ways to skin the cat."

dave

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

We worked on cutting the sides of the barrel channel and started removing wood today at Jeff's shop. Jeff said this is a technique that Wallace Gusler and John Bivins wrote about. It is apparently an old technique. We screwed guide rails down that flex to the shape of the swamped barrel, remove it then cut the side wall with a modified miter saw. Then we started removing wood from the barrel channel with a large gouge and flat chisel.