More Misfire Issues - Investarms 54 Caliber

[Turtle2]

Great discussion guys and Thank You So Much!! I was unaware of the Ante Chamber in the bottom of these barrels and got a brush to get down in there.
Also…the cleaning screw topic…in 20 years of owning this gun, I’ve never taken it out or messed with it until now. I discovered that with it fully seated, it does protrude into the nipple threads and upon closer inspection is keeping the nipple from full seating (see picture).
I also plan to replace the nipple with one where the hole is centered and hopefully this takes care of all these misfires.
Thank You again fellas - I really appreciate all your help and input.

 

[Ed C.]

The "clean out" screw is an artifact left over from the manufacturing of the drum and some breech plugs from the drilling of flash channel from the nipple set to the powder chamber. The cheap solution is to install a threaded fastener as a plug. Now that the threaded fastener is ther and it has a slot the item needed a name and for lack of a better name it was called a "clean out" screw. Yes, it can be removed and is effective for cleaning out the barrel and breech or for adding powder to unload a dry ball. All too often the screw is soft and the slot gets deformed. T/C had to redesign their breech as their "clean out" screw slots got destroyed when removed to flush the barrel of the hooked breech rifles. (i destroyed the slot in my T/C Hawken by removing it as a clean out feature.) The last of the T/C breeches don't have a clean out screw and they drill the flash channel from the opposite side from the nipple seat and truly plug the drilled hole. Not all original breeches either the drum or the "patent" breech have a threaded screw that could be construed as a "clean out" feature. As Alex has observed, that screw can be installed in ways that can obstruct the installation of the nipple, sometimes blocking the flash hole or locking the nipple in the nipple seat.

Treat it as a "clean out" screw and be sure to always use a never seizing lubricant on the threads or you will have a plug. Take care to always use a screw driver that perfectly fits the slot or the slot will be destroyed and you will have a plug. Replace it with a very short hardened cap screw be sure to use never seizing lubricant on the threads.

Or, if it is not interfering with the nipple, leave it alone and never remove it. Effective cleaning can be done when the nipple is removed. Oh, and use never seizing lubricant on the threads of the nipple.

I'm in the never remove the "clean out" screw camp. Same advice for the touch hole liner for a flintlock.

The clean out screw or whatever we wish to call it should be seated tight. In most guns the nipple goes past the tapping in the drum. In order for the clean out screw to be properly tightened it needs to be no longer than it's tapped hole lest it is bumping into the nipple. In that case the clean out screw needs to be filed down. I've done as you suggested and replaced mine with a socket head cap screw properly trimmed. Personal choice as to what to do for cleaning.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Turtle2, do shorten that "clean out" screw a bit to clear the nipple seat. Reinstall it and forget about it. It's not really a clean out screw anyway. Its use was to plug the hole left when manufacturing the breech plug or drum.

 

[Okie Hog]

Recently a hog hunter brought me a nice TC .54 caliber TC Hawken that was misfiring.

i replaced the beat up nipple with a new TC nipple. Capped the new nipple and ran a rod with jag and patch into the bore. The cap popped but there was no burn mark on the patch. Removed the nipple and cleaned the flame channel using a bristled pipe cleaner. Re-installed the nipple.. Again i ran the rod with jag and patch into the bore. and popped another cap. This time there was a good burn mark on the patch.

Loaded the rifle with 100 grains of Shooters World BP substitute and a patched round ball and fired. Ball hit the three inch bullseye at 78 yards.

A previous poster mentioned something that will eliminate some misfires. Leaning the rifle lock side down and giving the stock a couple good slaps with the hand after loading the powder allows powder o enter he flame channel.

 

[Turtle2]

Where can a guy get nipples for these Investarms guns and is there a source here? I checked the vendors section but didn’t see anything or maybe I missed them? Thank you again everyone - I do appreciate all your help and input.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Turtle2, Track of the Wolf's online catalog has nipples with the proper threads for your InvestArms rifle. It never hurts to take a nipple to your local hardware store to match the threads to a thread gauge I'm guessing it will be 6mm x 1.00. Those nipples should be available at your local gun store (LGS).

 

[AlexB]

Where can a guy get nipples for these Investarms guns and is there a source here? I checked the vendors section but didn’t see anything or maybe I missed them? Thank you again everyone - I do appreciate all your help and input.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=Investarms nipple

 

[flatcreek]

I removed my buggered up clean out screw in my TC Hawken and welded it shut. Have yet to have a problem with it.

 

[wganz]

Bias included from too many years as an RN in a hospital setting.
Personally, here is what I'd do. First off, clean it really well.
1. Then get a bore scope/endoscope that are now about $35 off of eBay. Yeah, its $35 for this one job but you have one for the next 20 years for anything else you need. They're great for looking under/behind/around/in things that my XXXL hand cannot get into. With that said, go down the bore to see the breech and inspect for any of the aforementioned problems. Now, just leave it in the bore for now for the next tests. (Nota bene: we're looking at this point instead of blindly changing parts.).
2. Next, I would remove the nipple and use one of the laser pointer kittie toys or a bright penlight as your Choice of Bright Light (CoBL) and stick on the hole to see how much light is coming through it now.
3. Then remove that clean out screw, (don't listen to the krying karens for if it was an issue then they wouldn't have put it there). Hold its head against the end of the drum to see how far it extends and whether it would obstruct the nipple.
4. With that done, I'd put a piece of tape over the nipple hole to shut off ambient light then put the CoBL there to see if you got light going down the drum.
5. Also, with the clean out screw being uninstalled, put the nipple back in and using the CoBL to see if the nipple isn't bottoming out in the flash hole in the drum.
6. Now fix any problems that your tests found.

Disadvantages to this methodology:
1. More expensive in that an endoscope is required.

Advantages to this methodology:
1. Endoscope will love you long time and can be used for years for other purposes in looking into or for thing.
2. Does not randomly change out parts which may lead you into chasing the problem where a new part would introduce new & similar problems causing additional confusion + frustration.

My 2¢,

 

[Boomerang]

The Possible Shop has them.

Rifle-6x.75mm - .636" Long
New Lyman Nipple

 

[Cowboy]

Want to be sure your hammer cup sits centered over the entire circumference of the nipple to start with?

I was new to muzzleloading at the time and bought a brand new GPR as my second muzzleloader.

Was having failure to fires one cap after another. For the likes of me I couldn’t figure out why? Was using Remington caps. My Cabela’s Hawken was firing great using those very same caps??

Another experienced shooter examined my GPR and noticed that the hammer cup was not centered squarely over the nipple. Only the front edge of the cup was hitting the cap?

Anyway, I ended up boxing up the GPR and sending it back. After about three weeks I received the same GPR but with a different barrel. Hammer cup and nipple were aligned properly.

Never had a problem since! Doesn’t matter what nipple or cap I use with this rifle. Fires 100% of the time!

That was my experience.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Steve Wagner]

Want to be sure your hammer cup sits centered over the entire circumference of the nipple to start with?

I was new to muzzleloading at the time and bought a brand new GPR as my second muzzleloader.

Was having failure to fires one cap after another. For the likes of me I couldn’t figure out why? Was using Remington caps. My Cabela’s Hawken was firing great using those very same caps??

Another experienced shooter examined my GPR and noticed that the hammer cup was not centered squarely over the nipple. Only the front edge of the cup was hitting the cap?

Anyway, I ended up boxing up the GPR and sending it back. After about three weeks I received the same GPR but with a different barrel. Hammer cup and nipple were aligned properly.

Never had a problem since! Doesn’t matter what nipple or cap I use with this rifle. Fires 100% of the time!

That was my experience.

Respectfully, Cowboy

Good call Cowboy. He should also check the hammer cup for spent cap. That happens from time to time with my rifles and they act as unwanted 'shock absorbers'.
[Man, I hope she is beautiful and wonderful to get you from WY to IL. That would kill me. My Dad grew up in IL and I couldn't take that. Loved my aunt and uncle's farm. But I need some mountains. Or at least some hills.]
SW

 

[Cowboy]

Good call Cowboy. He should also check the hammer cup for spent cap. That happens from time to time with my rifles and they act as unwanted 'shock absorbers'.
[Man, I hope she is beautiful and wonderful to get you from WY to IL. That would kill me. My Dad grew up in IL and I couldn't take that. Loved my aunt and uncle's farm. But I need some mountains. Or at least some hills.]
SW

Yes, she is beautiful my friend. We live in a small village on the IL&IN border. We’ve been married now for about 22 years. Still get back home to Cody WY every year to see family and friends.

 

[Steve Wagner]

Yes, she is beautiful my friend. We live in a small village on the IL&IN border. We’ve been married now for about 22 years. Still get back home to Cody WY every year to see family and friends.

I get it. My Dad grew up in Joliet before WW2. Aunt and uncle farmed near Minooka. Grandfather was a railroad engineer for the "J" [E,J &E] with my father as his fireman, until the war. Tons of really good and authentic people in the hamlets of IL. I have relatives all over the place back there. Salt of the earth people. SW

 

[springfield art]

I continue to fight misfire issues with my 54 caliber. Years ago I switched out the stock nipple for a “Red Hot Nipple” (I think is what it was called) and had even more misfires so went back to the stock nipple.
I noticed the stock nipple hole is off centered. Could this be the cause or any thoughts on why the misfire issues? New Triple 7 and new CCI caps and same issue.

Try another stock nipple, replacement. I do think many guys neglect the flash channel cleaning.

 

[Rebel bull]

@Turtle2, Track of the Wolf's online catalog has nipples with the proper threads for your InvestArms rifle. It never hurts to take a nipple to your local hardware store to match the threads to a thread gauge I'm guessing it will be 6mm x 1.00. Those nipples should be available at your local gun store (LGS).

my grandsons Investarms takes a 6mmx.75

 

[Mad Professor]

@Turtle2, I've got to agree with the above posts. Misfires are almost always related to an obstruction in the fire channel. A rigorous cleaning of the InvestArms chambered breech is certainly due. Is the percussion cap firing? The caps may be bad. We have seen reports here on the Forum that some of the new CCI caps have been less than reliable. Is the nipple mushroomed at the cone. They are cheap enough to just go ahead and change it out. The other cause is associated with synthetic powders that are safe to use and available but require a much higher ignition temperature. The high ignition temperature coupled with a tortuous path from the nipple seat and a possible fouling in the chambered breech make reliable ignition a challenge. Rarely, there will be shards of metal left in the flash channel causing a partial blockage.

Now, I believe that the InvestArms rifle will have a hooked breech. The barrel can be removed for a vigorous flushing of the barrel and breech. Still the chambered breech needs to be verified clear.

If you clean it in warm water the stream of water from the nipple will let you know it's clear.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Mad Professor, I remove the nipple. I get lots more cleaning solution through that 0.250" hole than the 0.030" hole in the nipple. The nipple is intended to be removed, the "clean out" screw really isn't regardless of what it is called.

 

[flconch53]

@Mad Professor, I remove the nipple. I get lots more cleaning solution through that 0.250" hole than the 0.030" hole in the nipple. The nipple is intended to be removed, the "clean out" screw really isn't regardless of what it is called.

It is called a clean out screw because chips are cleaned out of the flash channel during manufacturing.

 

[Grenadier1758]

It is called a clean out screw because chips are cleaned out of the flash channel during manufacturing.

The hole is drilled to make the flash channel from the nipple seat to the powder chamber. After the chips are cleared from the manufacturing of the breech plug or drum, that hole is plugged by a threaded plug and once the chips are cleaned from the flash hole there is no longer any reason to remove that treaded plug. There is no compelling reason for that plug to be removed during cleaning of fouling after shooting the gun. It is done, of course and many drums and breech plugs have been compromised because of that. Many have not.