How much is too much. How much powder (3f or 2f) will burn and still increase velocity in a 32 inch .54 calibre barrel. Is there a mathmatical formula that is used to figure this out or just plain trial and error and a chronograph. What peaked my curiosity is something I read about point blank shooting. For example, I have a rifle that uses 50 grains of 3f at 50 yds, 60 grains at 75 yds, all the way up to 105 grains at 200 yds. I use this rifle to shoot steel animal targets. At each range, and with the specific powder charge, I use the same sight picture. From what I have read recently, you guys are really on your game and I have picked some really useful info. Gimme your thoughts on this one.
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Sure got you fooled ain't we??????? :crackup: :crackup:
If there is a math formula for figuring the Point of Diminishing Returns I've yet to see it.
The chromograph is the most reliable way to determine the p.o.d.r. Generally speaking the .50 and .54's hit the p.o.d.r. at anything over 120 grains of 2fg rifle grade powder.
The p.o.d.r. will be reached sooner with true sporting grade powder like Swiss.
There is the old trick of shooting over snow, a white sheet, white paper, etc. and examine for unburnt powder.
I never did believe that manure and still think it's an old tail handed down from some drunken mountain man to idjits that beleived it. :bull:
The gun powder itself becomes part of the recoil equation also. Using more isn't always better in that regard.
Another general rule of thumb is hat black powder is more likely to burn more completely under a heavy bullet vs. a roundball. This is likely because the heavy bullet might spend a micro second or two longer in the barrel than the r.b.
If your shooting over a machine and 140 grains gains you 100 f.p.s. or less than 120 grains then you would be well advised to back off to a max of 120 grains.
I'll bet some of the brainy types here can explain this better than I just did.
Herb
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The "Lyman Black Powder Handbook", 1975, lists charges of Goex 3F in 30 and 34" test barrels. Note that is 3F and they did not use 2F. They used .535 balls and .015 patch with Crisco lube. In the 30" barrel, they gained about 100 fps per 10 grain increase up to 120 grains, then 50 fps increase per 10 grains up to their max of 160 grains. This gave them 2072 velocity. In the 34" barrel, same thing, except they gained 60 fps per 10 grain increase to their max of 140 grains at 1973 fps. Both these gave about 15,000 CUP pressure, which was about their maximum in all calibers.
They tested 3F against 2F in a 43" barrel:
100 gr 3F gave 1740 fps at 11700 CUP
120 1907 13100
140 2113 13800
160 2158 15000
180 2153 16100
100 gr 2F gave 1538 fps at 6700 CUP
120 1667 8100
140 1779 8500
160 1898 11300
180 1986 12500
So I guess this is your answer, at least for 3F.
The "Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual, 2nd Ed.", 2001: .54 cal. 32" bbl, 1-60" twist: Their max was 120 grains for all .50 and .54 cal loads. Using a .535 ball and .015 pre-lubed OxYoke patch, Goex 2F gave 1803 fps and Goex 3F gave 1735 fps- SLOWER- both at 8300 psi (different pressure measurement). They listed numerous conical and saboted bullet loads in .54 cal. at over 20,000 psi, clear up to 29,100 psi.
I have a reference (can't find at the moment) where someone tested an original .54 Hawken with up to 150 gr (2F?) powder. He said 8" drop at 200 yards from a 100 yard zero. So I tested this in two Hawkens I built. First had a 36" Green Mtn barrel, both .530 Hornady and .015 Pillow ticking. Gave 1985 fps. Second was left handed, 32" Green River barrel. Gave 1958 fps and 28" drop at 200 yards, with a 100 yard zero. That was enough kick for me, unless I was facing a charging big hairy critter of some kind.
They tested 3F against 2F in a 43" barrel:
100 gr 3F gave 1740 fps at 11700 CUP
120 1907 13100
140 2113 13800
160 2158 15000
180 2153 16100
100 gr 2F gave 1538 fps at 6700 CUP
120 1667 8100
140 1779 8500
160 1898 11300
180 1986 12500
So I guess this is your answer, at least for 3F.
The "Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual, 2nd Ed.", 2001: .54 cal. 32" bbl, 1-60" twist: Their max was 120 grains for all .50 and .54 cal loads. Using a .535 ball and .015 pre-lubed OxYoke patch, Goex 2F gave 1803 fps and Goex 3F gave 1735 fps- SLOWER- both at 8300 psi (different pressure measurement). They listed numerous conical and saboted bullet loads in .54 cal. at over 20,000 psi, clear up to 29,100 psi.
I have a reference (can't find at the moment) where someone tested an original .54 Hawken with up to 150 gr (2F?) powder. He said 8" drop at 200 yards from a 100 yard zero. So I tested this in two Hawkens I built. First had a 36" Green Mtn barrel, both .530 Hornady and .015 Pillow ticking. Gave 1985 fps. Second was left handed, 32" Green River barrel. Gave 1958 fps and 28" drop at 200 yards, with a 100 yard zero. That was enough kick for me, unless I was facing a charging big hairy critter of some kind.
Guest
Herb. I know you were just citing the 1975 Lyman book as reference only, but I wanted to point out to other readers that the 1975 Lyman book can not be trusted.
No one publishes top end loads in calibers over .50 using 3fg any longer.
The old Lyman does not list GOEX, it lists G-O which later became GOEX, and of course Curtis and Harvey which isn't made anymore.
The old G-O was different than today's GOEX. In fact the latest GOEX is a mite stronger than it was last year as GOEX changed KNO3 suppliers and the new KNO3 is much better than what they were using, ergo, GOEX quality improved.
I doubt the Lyman loads would blow up a gun, but the ballistic information in the '75 edition isn't applicable any longer.
No one publishes top end loads in calibers over .50 using 3fg any longer.
The old Lyman does not list GOEX, it lists G-O which later became GOEX, and of course Curtis and Harvey which isn't made anymore.
The old G-O was different than today's GOEX. In fact the latest GOEX is a mite stronger than it was last year as GOEX changed KNO3 suppliers and the new KNO3 is much better than what they were using, ergo, GOEX quality improved.
I doubt the Lyman loads would blow up a gun, but the ballistic information in the '75 edition isn't applicable any longer.
Guest
As far as shooting over snow, every charge has roughly 55% converted to solid waste, so? Just what you are seeing as fouling on the snow, or powder granuals, I don't know. I've tried this experiment and have never seen any granuals - all seem to be consumed, either in the barrel or just outside the muzzle. I cannot imagine putting in enough powder to get a spray of unburnt powder granuals, just as in a modern rifle, the excess is burnt in the muzzle blast of flame and sparks.
Here's the problem: as you keep adding bulky black powder, you keep moving the ball farther up the barrel. At some point, it begins to act as if it were a barrel obstruction as the pressure builds behind it. There's an old wives tale that you can't over fill a blackpowder barrel with powder because any unburned will just be pushed out. I don't want to try testing that with my barrel. I seem to remember some destructive tests with leaded steel barrels used in modern muzzleloaders and damage started at around 600 grs with a single round ball. Anything over the weight of the ball (230 gr for a .54) is risking the barrel (and your eyes and hands) needlessly. I, personally, don't even get half that far. I used to go fangs out and toss 120 gr in my .54s, but now I use 80 to 90 gr FFg and it still gets the job done; and with better accuracy.
Well, this isn't a reccomendation, quite the opposite in fact. It is to point out that you sometimes survive DUMB things. Back in the late 70's, when i was fairly new to BP shooting, and also a lot younger and dumber, i had a CVA Colonial pistol kit that i had built. It had about a 10" barrel and was .45 cal. Well one day another guy and i were out shooting it and drinking too. I know, that is a no no, Alcohol and guns don't mix, but like i said, i was younger and dumber then. Anyway, we decided to see how much powder it would shoot. We loaded the barrel nearly full, have no idea how many grains that would have been, but it was full enough that when we seated the ball it was only about 1" below the muzzle. Well i tell ya what, when i touched it off it got my attention real quick. You think a .44 mag has some recoil? Didn't get hurt, and it didn't hurt the gun any except for bending the pin that held the barrel to the stock. Don't figure all that powder burned, just acted as more weight and caused a whole lot of extra recoil. Now i'm not saying to go out and try this for yourself. I got away with it once, but that doesn't mean i would again. Just shows that the modern barrel steels will take a lot of abuse without blowing up on you. At least one time anyway. Weren't no snow in Tucson, Ariz. to see if there was unburned powder, and we were to toasted to care anyway, but i'm sure there must have been. Just telling this more to warn people NOT to do it, than anything else. DUMB things can get you hurt, or worse. Sometimes we get by with them, but not always.
Well heck, for at least another 30 years. :crackup: :crackup: Why give up on a GOOD excuse? ::
Guest
:I would limit my rifles if I was shooting factory guns. Almost ALL of them have dovetails and screw holes cut way too deep for me, when 1/16" for a dovetail is all that's needed, less, if swaged on the ends.
: With the .54's my Brother makes, they're stated fine up to 140gr., no problem using GOEX 2F. They shoot more accurately at 100yds and longer ranges with that load than with less powder.
: I found the same with the 14(.69)bore. With 82gr. to 96gr., it would hold 2" to 2 1/2" at 100meters (109yards) ffo the bags. Upping the powder charge to from 140gr. to 165gr. would shrink those groups down to 1 1/2" regularly, just like clock work. 165gr. gives just over 1,500fps with the 480gr. ball.
: With the .54's my Brother makes, they're stated fine up to 140gr., no problem using GOEX 2F. They shoot more accurately at 100yds and longer ranges with that load than with less powder.
: I found the same with the 14(.69)bore. With 82gr. to 96gr., it would hold 2" to 2 1/2" at 100meters (109yards) ffo the bags. Upping the powder charge to from 140gr. to 165gr. would shrink those groups down to 1 1/2" regularly, just like clock work. 165gr. gives just over 1,500fps with the 480gr. ball.
Guess I'm just an ole fat country boy who still believes in Honesty 
eace:. Here's another piece to that question. In a 42 inch barrel, 105 grains 3F, about 8 inches down the bore, the powder seems to leave a charcoal-like susbstance that makes it very difficult to load the next shot. Should I maybe switch to the slower burning 2F powder?
eace:. Here's another piece to that question. In a 42 inch barrel, 105 grains 3F, about 8 inches down the bore, the powder seems to leave a charcoal-like susbstance that makes it very difficult to load the next shot. Should I maybe switch to the slower burning 2F powder?What I usally do is find a good, accurate 100 yard load and stick with it. I rarely find myself in a position to shoot at game at more than 70 yards. In a target situation though, I find myself shooting at targets out to 200 yards. In the past, I would range the rifle at 50 yards, shoot 3 shot groups, adding 5 grains of powder per group until the the group stopped rising,started spreading or I reached my max load (according to the manufacturer of the barrel). So far it has not worked that bad. :results:
Herb
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Maxiball- I stand corrected. That 3F powder was G-O, Gearhart-Owen, I think. As for your statement "No one publishes top end loads in calibers over .50 using 3FG any longer", the Lyman 2nd Edition I quoted lists 9 maximum loads(they only went to 120 grains with any projectile in .50 or .54 caliber) with 3FG in .54 caliber, and 3 using Pyrodex P, which is similar to 3FG. Went out today to test some loads in my .54 34" Orion-barreled Green River Leman. 80 grains of Goex 2F with a .530 cast ball gave 1651 fps for five shots, in 1.3" at 50 yards. 110 grains gave 1873, five shot group of 0.9". 120 grains gave 1874, group of 2.1". New measure- looks like it might only be about 117 grains, will weigh charges. Patches not good enough to keep shooting.
Hi Ridgeroader;
I'll sorta answer your question of "How much is too much" differently than the other fellows.
They are mostly talking about how much is possible.
My viewpoint is this. Any more in a longrifle than the "most accurate charge", is too much.
My experience is that all my rifles have one most accurate patch thickness, one most accurate patch lube ratio, and a narrow "most accurate charge" volume. The charge volume sometimes is a range of 10 or 15 grains. On one of my rifles, (the one with the slowest twist), the charge volume is a range of 75 grains ffg through 90 grains. On another rifle 70 to 80 ffg shoots well.
Seldom will the accuracy with widely varying charge amounts be equal. If you can stay within the accurate charge range, perhaps yes, but once stepping outside of that range, I've not had much accuracy.
I submit that using anything over the top of the most accurate range is the wrong thing to do with a muzzleloader. If a person needs more power, for larger or perhaps dangerous game, my opinion is that they should move up to a larger diameter bore. (Some fellows will change to a heavy conical bullet also, particularly if their twist rate allows it.)
Perhaps the most difficult thing for me when I was first starting to figure out all this blackpowder stuff was to "unlearn" most of what I thought I "knew". I had decades of shooting and hunting with various centerfires. Yes, they are all rifles, but beyond that so much is so very different.
More powder in a muzzleloader does not make it a magnum. It makes it an unnecessarily highly, perhaps even over-charged muzzleloader.
Now move from a 45 or a 50 caliber roundball to a 54 or 58 roundball and you've gained something! (If you really need it.)
Regards,
Jerry.
I'll sorta answer your question of "How much is too much" differently than the other fellows.
They are mostly talking about how much is possible.
My viewpoint is this. Any more in a longrifle than the "most accurate charge", is too much.
My experience is that all my rifles have one most accurate patch thickness, one most accurate patch lube ratio, and a narrow "most accurate charge" volume. The charge volume sometimes is a range of 10 or 15 grains. On one of my rifles, (the one with the slowest twist), the charge volume is a range of 75 grains ffg through 90 grains. On another rifle 70 to 80 ffg shoots well.
Seldom will the accuracy with widely varying charge amounts be equal. If you can stay within the accurate charge range, perhaps yes, but once stepping outside of that range, I've not had much accuracy.
I submit that using anything over the top of the most accurate range is the wrong thing to do with a muzzleloader. If a person needs more power, for larger or perhaps dangerous game, my opinion is that they should move up to a larger diameter bore. (Some fellows will change to a heavy conical bullet also, particularly if their twist rate allows it.)
Perhaps the most difficult thing for me when I was first starting to figure out all this blackpowder stuff was to "unlearn" most of what I thought I "knew". I had decades of shooting and hunting with various centerfires. Yes, they are all rifles, but beyond that so much is so very different.
More powder in a muzzleloader does not make it a magnum. It makes it an unnecessarily highly, perhaps even over-charged muzzleloader.
Now move from a 45 or a 50 caliber roundball to a 54 or 58 roundball and you've gained something! (If you really need it.)
Regards,
Jerry.
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Herb- the velocities you've recorded are very high, much higher than anything I've seen here-to-fore. In the last few years, I've shot nothing but the .45 flinter, 65gr. with 3F. I'm going to have at it with the .69 again, checking those "Old loads", as well as the loadings for Taylor's .54 cal. longrifles. IT could be that GOEX powder has improved substancially in the last couple years. Let me tell you, I'd MUCH rather be able to reduce my load to 110 to 120gr. rather than the previous 165gr. just to get it's favoured 1,500fps.
: In Keith's .75 Sporting rifle, 180gr. 2F GOEX was needed to get the same 1,500fps with the 600gr. ball, although any MODERN 12 gauge shotgun will match that vel. easily with smokeless powder, the 545gr. .715" ball & 1/3rd the recoil.
: In Keith's .75 Sporting rifle, 180gr. 2F GOEX was needed to get the same 1,500fps with the 600gr. ball, although any MODERN 12 gauge shotgun will match that vel. easily with smokeless powder, the 545gr. .715" ball & 1/3rd the recoil.
Herb
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I chronographed again today. Have an Oehler 35P, set up for 15 feet instrumental, no correction to muzzle velocity. Have chronographed thousands of centerfire rifle and muzzleloader rounds. Went back to my .54's. Have to relearn how to patch them. So this is how they went the last two sessions, all five shot groups at 50 yards:
80 grains Goex 3F, 1678 fps, 268 fps spread, wild.
80 grains Goex 2F, 1651 fps E 76, ES (group) 1.3"(1-5 lube)
90 grains Goex 2F, 1694 fps E 69, ES 1.0" (different lube- pure Murphy Oil Soap, almost like a grease)
110 grains Goex 2F, 1873 fps E 148, ES 0.9" (1 MOS to 5 alcohol)
120 grains Goex 2F, 1874 fps E 81, ES 2.1" (ditto)
90 grains Pyrodex RS, 1636 fps E 81, wild group. All patches shredded.
Have a new powder measure, it goes to 120 grains, but really throws only about 117 gr 2F. Will reshoot this one, don't know why the velocity didn't change. Most patches were holed or shredded, but still grouped well except for 3F and Pyrodex. When Goex moved from Moosic, PA to Minden, LA a few years ago, velocities with the new LA powder were maybe 100 fps lower with either 2F or 3F with charges like these. This 2F is early Louisiana powder, but the 3F is recent LA powder and is similar in velocity to the old PA powder. I am frequently puzzled by velocity readings.
80 grains Goex 3F, 1678 fps, 268 fps spread, wild.
80 grains Goex 2F, 1651 fps E 76, ES (group) 1.3"(1-5 lube)
90 grains Goex 2F, 1694 fps E 69, ES 1.0" (different lube- pure Murphy Oil Soap, almost like a grease)
110 grains Goex 2F, 1873 fps E 148, ES 0.9" (1 MOS to 5 alcohol)
120 grains Goex 2F, 1874 fps E 81, ES 2.1" (ditto)
90 grains Pyrodex RS, 1636 fps E 81, wild group. All patches shredded.
Have a new powder measure, it goes to 120 grains, but really throws only about 117 gr 2F. Will reshoot this one, don't know why the velocity didn't change. Most patches were holed or shredded, but still grouped well except for 3F and Pyrodex. When Goex moved from Moosic, PA to Minden, LA a few years ago, velocities with the new LA powder were maybe 100 fps lower with either 2F or 3F with charges like these. This 2F is early Louisiana powder, but the 3F is recent LA powder and is similar in velocity to the old PA powder. I am frequently puzzled by velocity readings.
Guest
Right-on- Fadalla found that all his velocities were improved when a wad was used to protect his burning patches and that's why he declared that patches didn't seal the powder charge behind the ball. PERIOD - LAST WORD, etc, etc - :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:- Sorry, Fadalla really cracks me up with his statements - always has. He didn't realise he could use a tighter combination.
; You can either use a loose combo, for two finger loading, and have to load a wad as well, or you can load a tighter fitting combination(as your ancestor's did) that doesn't burn the patches and let the gasses rush by. No, a hammer isn't needed, and amazingly enough, the barrel will shoot much cleaner, not needing cleaning or sqabbing or loading twice per shot.
; You can either use a loose combo, for two finger loading, and have to load a wad as well, or you can load a tighter fitting combination(as your ancestor's did) that doesn't burn the patches and let the gasses rush by. No, a hammer isn't needed, and amazingly enough, the barrel will shoot much cleaner, not needing cleaning or sqabbing or loading twice per shot.
possum4dinner
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Fill the rifle up to within a 1/2" of the muzzle. All you need is enough room to seat the ball. Cap and fire. NO short starter, ramrod or patch and lube needed.
