My first rifle... suggestions please?

[moemag]

Howdy folks,
I have a pretty good background in modern weapons, and am a fairly decent competitive 3 gun shooter. Anyway I have always had a bit of a soft spot for Flintlock rifles but have never been able to devote funds to it, until now.

To be honest I was looking to get the Thompson Center Firestorm No.5049. I actually found this forum by reading some negative press about the firestorm, and was curious if anyone could elaborate some more about it... maybe point me in the right direction.

If I may these are my interests in the gun:
-Stainless steel. I have some very fine modern pistols and shotguns that are high polish, case color, and blued. These guns live in their cases, are kept oiled, and most do not even have a scratch on them. My stainless guns, I don't mind taking them on hikes, putting them in the truck for work...if it gets scratched or needs smithing done, they are easily polished out.

-plastic stock... Well I would like it if it had a wooden stock honestly. I figure that's an easy weekend fix spent with my Dad who is an incredible woodworker. However the cheap plastic stock like the stainless... is just easier to take care of.

-set back rifling so its easy to start a projectile down the barrel so I don't need to carry around that little pusher thing (I have even seen people use mallets). To me that's just a good idea... don't know if it really is tho.

-Thompson center. In my world, Thompson Center has a pretty good reputation for making good products. Figured that quality would carry over to this gun.

Anyways... I really know nothing about muzzle loading rifles or flintlocks for that matter and would love some input. Most everybody I know... if it doesn't require a 4473 they don't want to talk about it.

-side question: I have a couple hundred pounds of some lead-low copper alloy that I thought would be good to cast into projectiles. (I have done it for center fire pistol rounds)... Does a round ball flying out of a rifle even do anything, or do you need a minie/maxie ball to make use of rifling?

 

[Moose Guide]

Most people here are very traditional so don't be offended if they seem a little prickly at times! My TC Hawken will send a round ball through both sides of a black bear at 60 yds. using 70 gr. of fffg

 

[cschibi]

I posted the same question to a group of folks that I highly respect and who has honored me as buddies on this most respected forum. After, much expressive debate... the Lyman GPR, and several credible recommendations for guys who build and distribute custom FLs surfaced during this discovery discussion.

For whatever it's worth... I recommend you figure out what your wanting to accomplish i.e. (Just fun plinking with FL- BP, BP hobbiest, hunting, competitive shooting etc..) , what your budget is and how dedicated you are to making the investment in time and money to affect very deliberate adjustments to master the Flint Lock..

That's Just my opinion as I am on this very same path as we speak....

 

[AWsaddles]

Welcome ! Can't tell you much about the firestorm as I have no experience with one. I know I once had a Thompson Center hawken that was percussion and it was a nice rifle. As to the lead question the lead aloy from pistol bullets and out of jacketed bullets is not pure lead but an aloy which is harder to reduce leading in modern guns . It will work to make round balls from but they will cast a few thousandths larger and will be a bit harder to load and are a harder ball in general. You would need a thinner patch to shoot them. Twist in your rifle will determine if it shoots round balls accurately. A round ball can shoot accurately to 100 and beyond in the right caliber and gun.

 

[cschibi]

Dude...

The folks on this forum will provide you with a plethora of experience and council... I encourage you to spend time searching for your basic questions as there are probably hundreds of credible responses to the most basic of questions that have already been responded to.

Evaluate the responses from different folks that participate within each forum....then start to choose the folks you would like to interact with based on your needs. I can guarantee you'll find several qualified and responsive participants.

Best of luck... and welcome to the world of Black Powder. Expect to get hooked.... :v

 

[moemag]

Chris S: Looked up the Lyman GPR. Not a huge fan of the double triggers... just something odd to me that's all. Also the TC has a removable breach block. After reading the manual sounds like the GPR would require some extensive work should a charge/ball get stuck... Is that a big deal? I have never had my cannon not fire, but I would hate to think what I would have to do to unload it. :shocked2: Also... that extra hardware behind the trigger guard looks a tad excessive...


As far as my goal, At this point it would be for personal enjoyment of accurate target shooting. I'm not a hunter, and I doubt BP competitive shooting is in my future. I spend a lot of time on the range waiting for other folks, and figured this would be a great way to pass the time and get good at a new skill. I got so bored one time I put a 20x scope on a 10/22 and shot flys off apple cores I threw out onto the range.

Budget, I want something nice. I was just at Shot Show and saw some absolutely beautiful muzzle loaders by some custom mfg's... It would be nice, but I have no need for that. That being said I don't want the blisterpack black powder shooters kit with raccoon hat. I guess I imagined spending about $500, but around $1000 isn't unrealistic.

ALW: The lead is actually some copper sheeting I got from a hospital X-ray room that got torn down. It has seemed to work pretty well as 250gr .45LC bullets. I'll have to get a RB mold to see what happens with the size, sounds interesting. Glad to hear that rifling works with round ball. Also... Is there an Ideal caliber for round ball? I was just thinking .50 Cal. I don't think I have a need for anything bigger, and .50 cal just seemed a little cooler than .45.

Edit: I will try to make good use of the search function

 

[cschibi]

Hey man, I totally get it..

I am in the same position your in, I am so also considering Pros & Cons of all the different options/alternatives available.

I think it would be fun to follow each others discovery and keep each other in the loop for what we are considering and why. This is really the real fun and value of this forum.

Sharing each others perspectives and making that ultimate purchase... :grin:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I have a couple hundred pounds of some lead-low copper alloy that I thought would be good to cast into projectiles.

The lead is actually some copper sheeting I got from a hospital X-ray room that got torn down.

No. If it has copper it has no value as a projectile in a muzzleloader and you could not melt it in a home furnace. Also, if it had copper it would not have been used in an X-ray room.

The Firestorm was a loophole to get people who have no idea how flintlocks work to add a second season. It uses modern synthetic powder and a modern synthetic stock to launch modern projectiles and entrap modern shooters into thinking that have a traditional firearm.

A removable breech is right up there with quick release steering wheels as a useless invention. I hunt with old, carbon steel, revolvers and double shotguns and I certainlyt don't pamper my muzzleloaders. They ger rained on and snowed on in regular and m/l season.

I don't take the barrels off my muzzleloaders, let alone the breeches. No need to. With proper care they shrug off rain and weather and can be cleaned with soapy water. A firearm should be used.

Stainless steel has it's place. On boats and eating utensils. As a barrel or a knife there are SO many better options.

 

[moemag]

Whoops. my bad. It is lead sheet... a fella who was installing the new stuff told me the alloy had something like 3% copper in it... It melts plenty fine with mapp gas.

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the Forum.

The TC Firestorm I found on the web has a 1:48 twist barrel which makes it similar to the other TC rifles.
This twist will allow shooting either slugs or patched balls so I can't find fault with that.

I mention this because although you can find some elongated lead bullets, the modern stuff made out of copper and plastic costs a fortune.

Patched lead roundballs on the other hand are relatively low in cost. That allows the shooter to have a lot more fun at a lot lower expense.

As was mentioned, the Firestorm has a special breech that is supposed to work with the new (expensive) powder pellets.

The problem with pellets is that all muzzleloading rifles have powder charges they work well with and other powder charges that work poorly.
With the pellets, your stuck with just one or two different charges.
Most likely, the best powder charge will be in between these. That, and its much lower cost is why using granulated powder is the way to go.
The only fly in the soup is that modern synthetic muzzleloading powders don't work worth a darn in a flintlock.
Their ignition temperature is too high.

One can get around this if they pour a small charge of real black powder down the barrel followed by the synthetic ML powder.

As for removing the breech, as others have mentioned, it is not needed. In fact, the removable breech can become a source of some sever leakage if its seals become damaged.

With normal barrel breeches they are not meant to be removed.
If one has a "dry ball" (one loaded without a powder charge) it is a simple matter to work some powder down thru the touch hole, point the arm downrange and fire it. It takes surprisingly little powder to blow a stuck ball out of the barrel with quite a bit of force behind it.

Double set triggers aren't a bad thing.
They can be used just like a normal trigger by just using the front one.
The rear one is for "setting" the trigger. If this is done, a very light touch on the front trigger will fire the gun.
As I say, you don't have to use this feature but if you choose to just use the front trigger, "unset", the trigger pull will be pretty heavy.

 

[Billnpatti]

The Firestorm is far from a gun that would interest me but..... to each his own. I am a traditionalist and do not believe stainless steel has any place on a flintlock nor does plastic. But, again, "to each his own" as the man said when he kissed a pig. :haha: There are many decent traditional flintlock rifles for sale on The Forum. Just keep an eye on the For Sale section. Then again, some folks would prefer to kiss that pig of stainless steel and plastic and far be it from me to find fault with them for doing so. :haha:

 

[moemag]

Zonie: Patched lead round balls, or home made minie/maxie balls (further research required on them) is what I was thinking. I have no intrest whatsoever in those powder pellets. That just seems like a gimmick right up there with what Stumpkiller said about getting another season. I reload my own ammo for my modern guns”¦ using a pellet would be like using factory ammo”¦ which is a big no-no in my world. That’s just missing the point for a flintlock in my book. I’m almost looking forward to have instant gratification in changing loads. I bet one can get just as lost in details loading a muzzle loader as you can loading for benchrest or powerfactor.

So black powder substitute don’t work well for flintlocks huh”¦ bummer. I never figured out a good place to get black powder from. About the time I ran out of my two cans of cannon powder, I had figured out how to load my cannon with substitute to get pretty impressive results.

Point taken on the removable breech”¦ pointless.

The double trigger”¦ I guess it just seems like an unnecessary complexity. I tend to like things that are very simple and clean looking. 2 triggers on 1 barrel seems like 1 too many moving parts. But I won’t let that be a disqualifier yet.

Billnpatti: I’m not a huge fan of the plastic stock at all, but I do like me some stainless”¦ it’s kind of an obsession. I sure would love to have a beautiful blonde tiger or curly maple stock with a high polish stainless action and barrel”¦ I think that would just be the bees knees of awesome. I might even try to figure out how to make one come to think of it”¦ after all I do make guns for a living”¦ never made a flintlock action tho :hmm: Would have to call it Miss Piggy.

I will certainly go check out the for sale section and see what is floating around.

 

You don't say what part of the country you live in, but if you are fortunate enough to live anywhere near a club that has regularly scheduled matches you need to go to one. I've never been to a club yet where they were not willing to answer questions for someone who is interested in starting out in the game. And chances are, after the matches are over there's a good chance you will be given a chance to try a few shots.
Your idea of a stainless barrel and tiger maple stock is like fingernails on a blackboard to me. I suspect that if you ever really get the bug it will affect you the same way. Go to Track of the Wolf's website and, as you look at what they have to offer, imagine what the gun would look like in stainless. I think (hope?) you will see what I mean.

 

[54ball]

My advice.......
With a grand to spend...Buy you a real honest to gosh flintlock longrifle and be done with it.

I bought this one used a few years ago off this forum for $700 bucks.
It has...
Chambers Ketland lock...
Rice B wt swamped bbl in .45...
custom made Mathew Gillespie stock carved from a blank...
Davis set triggers...
I know the above means nothing to you but that's about the best stuff you can buy in traditional BP. That rifle is also pretty authentic for the early 1800s.
This is the most accurate firearm I've ever held. Period,modern arms included!!!

Do not be put off by the set triggers. All they do is lighten the front trigger for more accurate shooting. Setting or pulling the the rear trigger makes the front trigger "hair" for precise shooting. Most can fire with just pulling the front trigger alone but with a heavier pull. You'll like it one you get used to it.
I think every firearm enthusiast should own at least one 1700s to early 1800s American longrifle , just for what it did in history. It may not be the "gun that won our independence" but it comes pretty darn close.

 

[54ball]

One of the best http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/8849/cat/9
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/8995/cat/9
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/8987/cat/9
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/7755/cat/9
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/492/2/AAL-746
Single trigger rifled fusil http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/487/1/AAL-257

One of the best... http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/487/3/AAL-757
Very good http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/487/3/AAL-785

 

[54ball]

Since you are a gun builder, here's one for ya
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKit.aspx/603/1/KIT-US-1803

Amory polished steel will look like uh,stainless. :barf: Note the polished lock. Polished steel is pretty easy to maintain once it's polished and oiled. Not any harder than stainless, that will definitely rust with BP.

Bees Knees???? Where do live, 1950? :rotf:
I am trying to joke, not being mean.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I tend to like things that are very simple and clean looking.

Looks are one thing, performance is another, no? :wink:

The rifle is intended to fill a percieved gap between a reproduction of a "traditional rifle", and the legal requirements for shooting a flintlock in some states; coupled with the myth that it is so much easier to clean a stainless steel barrel with a removeable breech and a short, light rifle is better too.



If you enjoyed shooting flies or yellow jackets off of apples tossed downrange..., you will want the set triggers. They give you the option of using a standard trigger or a "match trigger". The slower lock time or "ignition" time of the flintlock (compared to your modern rifles) will be countered a bit by using the set trigger.

You may or may not like the sights on the rifle. The barrel is a mere 26" long, and the sight radius is only about 18". With such a short distance between front and rear sight, plus the large front sight post and large cut in the rear sight, you may find the rifle a bit less accurate than your scoped Ruger. Oh, the barrel is probably accurate, but the sighting system with your human eye would probably be better served with a longer barrel. You could always go to a peep sight or a scope. It is, after all, designed to be a low maintenance hunting rifle, not a plinking or target rifle.

For that money I think it would be better spent on a Lyman Great Plains Rifle, and you can get a peep sight for it as well.

LD

 

[moemag]

Randy: Phoenix AZ. I just looked up Rio Salado Sportsmans Club and it looks like there is a pretty big following out there.

I will check out that site”¦ looks like 54 posted some links”¦ I guess I had it in my head that the polished steel guns would be easier in stainless. Bees Knees”¦ the watch my language rule forces me to get a little goofy. Who can’t use a good laugh. :grin:

54ball: your rifle is beautiful. I love that the forearm goes all the way to the muzzle, The roller on the mainspring (?) that looks like a cool idea. And I like that it doesn’t have a patch box on the stock. I have to say all that metal on a beautiful wooden stock kinda ruins it for me.
Thanks for listing those parts! I will probably spend the day google’ing those to see what I can learn. I would love to build my own gun... good to see what is available for off the shelf parts.

Loyalist Dave: As an engineer it has been my experience that simplicity usually results in performance and endurance, looks”¦ well if it’s done right should be beautiful in it’s own right. In my humble opinion sir.

I see where you are coming from with the set trigger. It’s just different to me.

And wow did you hit the head on the nail about one of the things I really do not like about the Stainless TC. I know I’m going to hate those sights. I like fiber optics on the front sights of my pistols, but not on rifles. I figured those would be coming off, and getting replaced with something.

I think I might be in the market for something a little more traditional now”¦ still need to figure out exactly what it is. I love the comment “I think every firearm enthusiast should own at least one 1700s to early 1800s American longrifle , just for what it did in history”

Oh... is there a right caliber for shooting patched ball? I'm just a little biased toward .50cal Should I be... does it matter?

 

[cynthialee]

the .50 is a common caliber with many acessories and dodads available at local sporting goods stores

the .45 and the .54 find some support on the retail side, but not as much as the .50

any other BP rifle you may have, you will have to get your stuff online in most cases

 

[Billnpatti]

Many match shooters at Friendship seem to like the .40 and claim it is inherently more accurate. I don't know about that but it is a nice caliber. I have one and it is a nice shooter and goes easy on the lead and powder. My rifle seems to like 40 grains of 3f. That means that a pound of black powder will give me approx. 175 shots. However, it is a bit big for small game such as squirrels and not big enough for deer size game. For small game, I like either a .32 or a .36 and for deer size game I like a .50. For larger game such as elk, bear,etc. I like something like a .54. So, if all you are going to do is punch paper, you might like something like a .40 or .45. But, the .50 has a big folowing and there isn't anything wrong with it either on the range or in the woods.

Since you are new to the black powder game, you may wonder if you can shoot shot in a rifle. The simple answer is yes, you can, but the pattern is very bad. A rifle will give you a doughnut pattern because the rifling causes the shot charge to spin and results in a doughnut pattern. A smoothbore is able to shoot either shot or roundballs but you sacrifice the accuracy of a rifle. Both will be nearly equal out to 50 yards but after that, the rifle will out shoot a smoothbore. If you want a smoothbore for shot, you will be ahead by getting something in 20 ga or larger.

Just some random thoughts. :hmm: Us old farts have random thoughts frequently. Some make sense and some don't. You be the judge. :haha: