Unfortunately, I've found nothing which documents or even indicates that they have any lobbying arm, deferring to the NRA instead...and to be clear, I'm not advocating that anyone else do anything one way or another...I just mentioned that I haven't gotten anything out of the membership and won't be renewing it to subsidize a range for others to use, that's all.
-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
My NMLRA membership renewal just arrived
- Thread starter roundball
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
roundball,
i think i have made my views about the nmlra quite clear on this forum. but i must back down on my opinion about the dues. when you said 48$ i thought you were talking about a single membership not for a family and i apologize for anyone i offended by my eirlier comments, but still don't think i am getting 40$ of benifits from the nmlra. i think i would rather give the NRA 80$ since they truly defend the 2nd. looks to me as the nmlra is using me, you and the NRA :imo: :m2c:
eace: :thumbsup:
snake-eyes
i think i have made my views about the nmlra quite clear on this forum. but i must back down on my opinion about the dues. when you said 48$ i thought you were talking about a single membership not for a family and i apologize for anyone i offended by my eirlier comments, but still don't think i am getting 40$ of benifits from the nmlra. i think i would rather give the NRA 80$ since they truly defend the 2nd. looks to me as the nmlra is using me, you and the NRA :imo: :m2c:
eace: :thumbsup: snake-eyes
Guest
I'm jest wunder'n if ther's any NMLRA Reps. here read'n how us fellas feel 'bout the organization,.... and if ther is, what "they" have to say in defence of the NMLRA's apparent greed and double standards???? :: :huh:
No, that's unrealistic...the situation is simply one of free enterprise and common sense...they've changed their product so it no longer meets my needs, therefore I'll no longer give them my money, and will look elsewhere.
:winking:
:winking:
For what it's worth, I looked thru the last 2 months of Muzzle Blasts and except for the one article dealing with big game, I didn't see one article about, or even mentioning Modern Muzzleloaders. Ya, there were a few ads for things like 777 and such, but the way some of our members are talking, scoped, stainless steel, fiberglass stocked guns with Shotgun primers shooting 150 grain Pyrodex loads is all they talk about.
Not so.
As for the NMLRA financing a Muzzleloading Lobby like the NRA, those lobbies cost Millions of dollars to even begin to set up, and more millions of dollars to maintain.
The present $40.00 membership costs multiplied by the roughly 20,000 members only comes to $800,000 per year.
It doesn't take much mental effort to see that lobbying is out of the question. (By the way, the NMLRA HAS NOT raised their membership costs, and Postage eats up a lot of your membership fees.)
Captchee made some valid remarks about the possible effects of some of the new style rifles on hunting.
Pointing out that with the new scope mounted guns taking game at ranges of 150+ yards, the time will come when muzzleloading seasons could be eliminated.
This may be true, but the NMLRA recognizing the existance of these new guns, and holding competitive shoots for them, and even recognizing the game taken with them is not IMO the problem.
Whether the NMLRA recognizes these guns, or sticks their heads in the sand and pretends they don't exist will have NO bearing on what the states do with their hunting laws.
If you feel strongly (as many of you do), YOU can have a direct influence on your states hunting laws.
Whether you want to totally ban everything that wasn't available before 1840, or thing that forbidding sights which use lenses would level the playing field, all you have to do is unite people with similar feelings and let your Game and Fish department know what you want, and the reasons for wanting it.
I personally enjoy Muzzle Blasts magazine. There are things I would do differently, but the magazine is set up to be enjoyed by a number of different people with a number of different tastes.
As I said when I started this post, I haven't seen much, if anything in the NMLRAs magazine which deals with In-Lines or Telescopic Sights.
It almost appears to be as Shakespear said: "much ado about nothing".
:m2c:
Not so.
As for the NMLRA financing a Muzzleloading Lobby like the NRA, those lobbies cost Millions of dollars to even begin to set up, and more millions of dollars to maintain.
The present $40.00 membership costs multiplied by the roughly 20,000 members only comes to $800,000 per year.
It doesn't take much mental effort to see that lobbying is out of the question. (By the way, the NMLRA HAS NOT raised their membership costs, and Postage eats up a lot of your membership fees.)
Captchee made some valid remarks about the possible effects of some of the new style rifles on hunting.
Pointing out that with the new scope mounted guns taking game at ranges of 150+ yards, the time will come when muzzleloading seasons could be eliminated.
This may be true, but the NMLRA recognizing the existance of these new guns, and holding competitive shoots for them, and even recognizing the game taken with them is not IMO the problem.
Whether the NMLRA recognizes these guns, or sticks their heads in the sand and pretends they don't exist will have NO bearing on what the states do with their hunting laws.
If you feel strongly (as many of you do), YOU can have a direct influence on your states hunting laws.
Whether you want to totally ban everything that wasn't available before 1840, or thing that forbidding sights which use lenses would level the playing field, all you have to do is unite people with similar feelings and let your Game and Fish department know what you want, and the reasons for wanting it.
I personally enjoy Muzzle Blasts magazine. There are things I would do differently, but the magazine is set up to be enjoyed by a number of different people with a number of different tastes.
As I said when I started this post, I haven't seen much, if anything in the NMLRAs magazine which deals with In-Lines or Telescopic Sights.
It almost appears to be as Shakespear said: "much ado about nothing".
:m2c:
Guest
Zonie,.... I cain't believe thet you of all people would condone corispondence from the NMLRA to a paid-up member in good stand'n, with such garbage as:..........
1) "You know, in-lines were developed in the 1700's"
2) "In consulting several experts, they all concurred there is no difference in the firearms used to harvest the game entered into the Longhunter Record Book"
3) "We define traditional to include all muzzleloaders like modern inlines, and you're confusing traditional with primitive"
4) "We must embrace inlines as the way of the world as surely as we use cars instead of horses"
5) "There is no doubt that the great muzzleloader hunters of the past would have immediately chosen the new modern inline technology"
:shocking: :: :shake: :curse: :bull:
YMHS
rollingb
I didn't say I agree with their P... Poor responce to your question.
My thoughts on their comments are as follows:
1) "You know, in-lines were developed in the 1700's"
I wouldn't doubt that someone built a flintlock that had a flash hole in line with the bore. I can't proove or disprove their statement.
2) "In consulting several experts, they all concurred there is no difference in the firearms used to harvest the game entered into the Longhunter Record Book"
I think their consultant is totally incorrect IF he is including scoped rifles. It's what happens when you let some idiot answer the mail. Perhaps they Globalized the job and it was written overseas?
3) "We define traditional to include all muzzleloaders like modern inlines, and you're confusing traditional with primitive"
Hoping not to sound too much like our PRE Bush President, I guess that depends on what the meaning of "traditional" is. This gets down to how far back you want to go to define when tradition starts. If it is 20 years, their right. If it is 120 years their wrong.
4) "We must embrace inlines as the way of the world as surely as we use cars instead of horses"
As you know, I do not have a problem with the existance of inlines. They are a form of muzzleloading whether some people like them or not.
There are a lot of members on this Forum who own some of them. I don't have a problem with that either.
I do resent their use for hunting when they are equiped with Telescopic sights because many people take advantage of these to put them into a modern rifle class which is totally outside the original intent of the BlackPowder Muzzleloading Hunts.
5) "There is no doubt that the great muzzleloader hunters of the past would have immediately chosen the new modern inline technology"
I have to agree with this statement. The hunters who lived in the mid 1800s and earlier used the best rifles they could get.
If they could have had modern telescopic sights and bullets capable of 2 inch groups at 200 yards, they would have jumped at the chanch, if they could have afforded it.
Rather than going by the ramblings of some person in their front office, I will continue to be a member of the NMLRA and continue reading their (IMO) good magazine. For me, it's pluses outweigh the minuses.
My thoughts on their comments are as follows:
1) "You know, in-lines were developed in the 1700's"
I wouldn't doubt that someone built a flintlock that had a flash hole in line with the bore. I can't proove or disprove their statement.
2) "In consulting several experts, they all concurred there is no difference in the firearms used to harvest the game entered into the Longhunter Record Book"
I think their consultant is totally incorrect IF he is including scoped rifles. It's what happens when you let some idiot answer the mail. Perhaps they Globalized the job and it was written overseas?
3) "We define traditional to include all muzzleloaders like modern inlines, and you're confusing traditional with primitive"
Hoping not to sound too much like our PRE Bush President, I guess that depends on what the meaning of "traditional" is. This gets down to how far back you want to go to define when tradition starts. If it is 20 years, their right. If it is 120 years their wrong.
4) "We must embrace inlines as the way of the world as surely as we use cars instead of horses"
As you know, I do not have a problem with the existance of inlines. They are a form of muzzleloading whether some people like them or not.
There are a lot of members on this Forum who own some of them. I don't have a problem with that either.
I do resent their use for hunting when they are equiped with Telescopic sights because many people take advantage of these to put them into a modern rifle class which is totally outside the original intent of the BlackPowder Muzzleloading Hunts.
5) "There is no doubt that the great muzzleloader hunters of the past would have immediately chosen the new modern inline technology"
I have to agree with this statement. The hunters who lived in the mid 1800s and earlier used the best rifles they could get.
If they could have had modern telescopic sights and bullets capable of 2 inch groups at 200 yards, they would have jumped at the chanch, if they could have afforded it.
Rather than going by the ramblings of some person in their front office, I will continue to be a member of the NMLRA and continue reading their (IMO) good magazine. For me, it's pluses outweigh the minuses.
Guest
Leonardo Da vinci "developed" (but never built) the helicopter in the 15th century. Does that make it acceptable to have one at a NMLRA sanctioned event :: :hmm: :hmm: OK, stupid but just trying to make a point
Guest
Zonie
Here is the problem as I see it.
1) I don
Here is the problem as I see it.
1) I don
Flintshooter in Indiana
36 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2003
- Messages
- 77
- Reaction score
- 1
All you fellers have your opinions and it's your perogative to not renew, but I'm fightin' the battle from the inside.
If anybody remembers the posts I placed about the flintlock "inline" shoot on the primitive range at the Nat'ls. What the hell do you think that was? It was a protest about INLINES. When you get Directors shooting along with you in these situations, I believe someone's listening. Don't do a hellava lot a good to tuck your tail and run from the fight. But if'n that's what you wanna do, that's perfectly your right.
Sure the membership is falling, not like it was, but if you look at all memberships, they're falling too. Any of you who are Masons know that to be true. Whaddayado, keep plugging away and do what needs to be done. If it gets too expensive or too stressful, then give up the fight.
Did our forefathers give up, hell no!
[url] AND.........IN[/url] NO WAY DO I SUPPORT INLINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's my two cents and if you think it's only worth a penny, that's your right too.eace:
If anybody remembers the posts I placed about the flintlock "inline" shoot on the primitive range at the Nat'ls. What the hell do you think that was? It was a protest about INLINES. When you get Directors shooting along with you in these situations, I believe someone's listening. Don't do a hellava lot a good to tuck your tail and run from the fight. But if'n that's what you wanna do, that's perfectly your right.
Sure the membership is falling, not like it was, but if you look at all memberships, they're falling too. Any of you who are Masons know that to be true. Whaddayado, keep plugging away and do what needs to be done. If it gets too expensive or too stressful, then give up the fight.
Did our forefathers give up, hell no!
[url] AND.........IN[/url] NO WAY DO I SUPPORT INLINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's my two cents and if you think it's only worth a penny, that's your right too.
eace:
Last edited by a moderator:
Guest
Flintshooter in Indiana
what your missing is many of us here have and were long time members , standing just as you and saying we can fix this if we hang in there .
welll my friend im here to tell you your forhead will be mighty flat from beating it into the wall before your going to get things change .
the NMLRA has been moving this way one step at a time for years
pay your dues , have your say and next year or the year after when a guy steps up to the shoot with an inline that he has tapped wood grain paper to the plastic stock, with a NMLRA membership in one hand and spouting its design of 1700 will you then stand your ground or say we can fix this, but still let him shoot ,after all it is a muzzleloader right and the NMLRA has stated the 1700 design .
and one last thing our for fathers didnt hang in there ,, Once they had enough they revolted and sent king george on his marry way and started over .
what your missing is many of us here have and were long time members , standing just as you and saying we can fix this if we hang in there .
welll my friend im here to tell you your forhead will be mighty flat from beating it into the wall before your going to get things change .
the NMLRA has been moving this way one step at a time for years
pay your dues , have your say and next year or the year after when a guy steps up to the shoot with an inline that he has tapped wood grain paper to the plastic stock, with a NMLRA membership in one hand and spouting its design of 1700 will you then stand your ground or say we can fix this, but still let him shoot ,after all it is a muzzleloader right and the NMLRA has stated the 1700 design .
and one last thing our for fathers didnt hang in there ,, Once they had enough they revolted and sent king george on his marry way and started over .
Jack Walker
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2003
- Messages
- 117
- Reaction score
- 0
I had tried to "fight from the inside" on the problem I had with the NMLRA, who chose to ignore me instead. It's like beating a dead horse in my opinion. The funny part is the President doesn't live far from me and he doesn't seem to care about helping with problems either. Go figure.
Flintshooter in Indiana
36 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2003
- Messages
- 77
- Reaction score
- 1
I for one shoot strictly primitive. Weren't no pre 1840's inlines. The only inlines we shoot on the primitive range are hangin' from a rope at about 75yds., and we damn sure bust 'em up with our flinters.
I started shootin' at Friendship in the early seventies, 1971, laid off for quite a few years and went back in the 1990's after I'd mellowed a bit and learned how to listen as well as gripe.
I don't believe inlines should be allowed in the same sentence with muzzleloaders, but when enough "primitive weapons" shooters convince the others that they are modern rifles loaded from the muzzle, then they'll lose there place, or at least not be considered primitive. Several states have banned them from primitive weapons seasons and I'm sure others will follow. Not much sense in having a rifle you can only shoot once when others have three to five shots.
I don't agree with the Masons having one day classes to become a Master Mason, but I'm damn sure not giving up my enjoyment in the fraternity because some people take the "easy" way out.
If you don't think much of the NMLRA, then that's your business, but I can't see bashing the organization if you're not willing to try to change it. If you're tired of trying, that's another story. Where can you spend $40 to be able to camp, with a small fee, shoot, hunt, get a decent publication and enjoy the sport of muzzleloading anytime you wish. The grounds aren't open just twice a year. It's open 365 days.
Don't get me wrong, I hear the same thing you're saying every year when I go to Friendship, and when I've had enough I'll quit. But how many of us started out with CVA rifles or pistols and then blossomed into custom guns? I read on this board all the time about Lyman's, Pedersoli's, TVA's, Thompson Center's and several other production guns. So be it. If that's what they want, I got no problem with it. And if I can't outshoot them with my flinter or my smoothbore, all well and good. Then I need to practice.
Everyone has their own opinion and that's what's great about this country.eace:
I started shootin' at Friendship in the early seventies, 1971, laid off for quite a few years and went back in the 1990's after I'd mellowed a bit and learned how to listen as well as gripe.
I don't believe inlines should be allowed in the same sentence with muzzleloaders, but when enough "primitive weapons" shooters convince the others that they are modern rifles loaded from the muzzle, then they'll lose there place, or at least not be considered primitive. Several states have banned them from primitive weapons seasons and I'm sure others will follow. Not much sense in having a rifle you can only shoot once when others have three to five shots.
I don't agree with the Masons having one day classes to become a Master Mason, but I'm damn sure not giving up my enjoyment in the fraternity because some people take the "easy" way out.
If you don't think much of the NMLRA, then that's your business, but I can't see bashing the organization if you're not willing to try to change it. If you're tired of trying, that's another story. Where can you spend $40 to be able to camp, with a small fee, shoot, hunt, get a decent publication and enjoy the sport of muzzleloading anytime you wish. The grounds aren't open just twice a year. It's open 365 days.
Don't get me wrong, I hear the same thing you're saying every year when I go to Friendship, and when I've had enough I'll quit. But how many of us started out with CVA rifles or pistols and then blossomed into custom guns? I read on this board all the time about Lyman's, Pedersoli's, TVA's, Thompson Center's and several other production guns. So be it. If that's what they want, I got no problem with it. And if I can't outshoot them with my flinter or my smoothbore, all well and good. Then I need to practice.
Everyone has their own opinion and that's what's great about this country.
eace:
My hats off to Flintshooter in Indiana for his effort in trying to keep the NMLRA focused on its original reason for being. :thumbsup:
I couldn't help but notice his comment: "Several states have banned them from primitive weapons seasons and I'm sure others will follow."
This is one of the things I was getting at in my earlier post.
It is up to you people to influence your state Game and Fish department if you want the Muzzleloading Season to restrict the types of weapons which are legal to hunt with.
It is not the job of the NMLRA to do your job for you. It is totally up to you.
You will be fighting big bucks from the companies who have invested millions into expanding the use of Modern Muzzleloaders, and you will be butting heads with a lot of people who own these weapons, (and outnumber you) so your task is not an easy one.
Your arguement must be based on sound reasoning like,
"This Muzzleloading Hunt is supposed to be an extended hunt beyond the high power rifle season specifically designed for short range single shot muzzleloading weapons which historically have a moderate to low success rate due to their 150-250 year old design. It should not allow modern scoped weapons which equate with long range, high power, single shot rifles."
If you take the other tack, saying:
"It shouldn't allow those disgusting, shiny, modern, plastic stocked, shotgun primer eating, sabot shooting, falling block and bolt action, telescoped rifles out there in MY woods!" You will loose the battle.
Whether the NMLRA recognizes the existance of Modern Muzzleloaders, or not, has absolutely nothing to do with the types of guns your state permits in thier Muzzleloading Season.
For those of you who aren't members, I read thru the November issue in their hunting section.
While on a Turkey hunt a guy ended up killing not one, but two coyotes. The second one was trying to kill his dog which he had left tied up in camp.
With an admitably lucky shot, he ended up getting his turkey too. Oh, I almost forgot..... He was shooting his Flintlock, not an InLine.
Also for the non-readers, in the state of Maine, there is a petition to make hunting Bears with dogs, or bait illegal.
One, of several negitive catches is, the way it's written, the "bait" is defined so poorly that a bear eating berries or nuts that God put out for him also qualifies as a baited bear, so if you shot one when he was around these foods, you will be breaking the law.
Needless to say, a bear eating garbage out of your garbage can also is considered "baited".
The state of Alaska is facing a vote on a similar law.
Although NMLRA doesn't lobby, it does keep its members informed about important issues like these. IMO, Just one more reason to be a member. :m2c:
I couldn't help but notice his comment: "Several states have banned them from primitive weapons seasons and I'm sure others will follow."
This is one of the things I was getting at in my earlier post.
It is up to you people to influence your state Game and Fish department if you want the Muzzleloading Season to restrict the types of weapons which are legal to hunt with.
It is not the job of the NMLRA to do your job for you. It is totally up to you.
You will be fighting big bucks from the companies who have invested millions into expanding the use of Modern Muzzleloaders, and you will be butting heads with a lot of people who own these weapons, (and outnumber you) so your task is not an easy one.
Your arguement must be based on sound reasoning like,
"This Muzzleloading Hunt is supposed to be an extended hunt beyond the high power rifle season specifically designed for short range single shot muzzleloading weapons which historically have a moderate to low success rate due to their 150-250 year old design. It should not allow modern scoped weapons which equate with long range, high power, single shot rifles."
If you take the other tack, saying:
"It shouldn't allow those disgusting, shiny, modern, plastic stocked, shotgun primer eating, sabot shooting, falling block and bolt action, telescoped rifles out there in MY woods!" You will loose the battle.
Whether the NMLRA recognizes the existance of Modern Muzzleloaders, or not, has absolutely nothing to do with the types of guns your state permits in thier Muzzleloading Season.
For those of you who aren't members, I read thru the November issue in their hunting section.
While on a Turkey hunt a guy ended up killing not one, but two coyotes. The second one was trying to kill his dog which he had left tied up in camp.
With an admitably lucky shot, he ended up getting his turkey too. Oh, I almost forgot..... He was shooting his Flintlock, not an InLine.
Also for the non-readers, in the state of Maine, there is a petition to make hunting Bears with dogs, or bait illegal.
One, of several negitive catches is, the way it's written, the "bait" is defined so poorly that a bear eating berries or nuts that God put out for him also qualifies as a baited bear, so if you shot one when he was around these foods, you will be breaking the law.
Needless to say, a bear eating garbage out of your garbage can also is considered "baited".
The state of Alaska is facing a vote on a similar law.
Although NMLRA doesn't lobby, it does keep its members informed about important issues like these. IMO, Just one more reason to be a member. :m2c:
Guest
I'm think'n the TMA (new Traditional Muzzleloader Association be'n discussed on anuther thread), combined with the "Buckskinner Magazine", will offer the same information on "muzzleloader issues",.... but at a more reasonable fee to it's members!!
YMHS
rollingb
Flintshooter,
I was all but ready to quit the NMLRA over a few developements in the last 2 to 3 weeks, but after reading your post, I suddenly realized why I have been a 25 year member of the NMLRA.
Sometimes you just get tired of fighting the same old battles that seem to have no end in sight and a person says some things that are better left in the privacy of their own home. That is what I didn't do and that is what I should have done!
I will not quit the NMLRA. I will do what I can to promote it, and try and help by getting the NMLRA back to it's roots, or at least what I feel its roots are. Maybe, just maybe??? It may pay off some day, and tradition will return?
When looking at things as a whole I would honestly have to say they, the NMLRA, has done more to promote the sport of muzzleloading then anyother organization in this country or world. I do not care for their stand on the In-Line issue, and I will never support that, but I do support those of you who hold tradition first and above all, as I do! :thumbsup:
I was all but ready to quit the NMLRA over a few developements in the last 2 to 3 weeks, but after reading your post, I suddenly realized why I have been a 25 year member of the NMLRA.
Sometimes you just get tired of fighting the same old battles that seem to have no end in sight and a person says some things that are better left in the privacy of their own home. That is what I didn't do and that is what I should have done!
I will not quit the NMLRA. I will do what I can to promote it, and try and help by getting the NMLRA back to it's roots, or at least what I feel its roots are. Maybe, just maybe??? It may pay off some day, and tradition will return?
When looking at things as a whole I would honestly have to say they, the NMLRA, has done more to promote the sport of muzzleloading then anyother organization in this country or world. I do not care for their stand on the In-Line issue, and I will never support that, but I do support those of you who hold tradition first and above all, as I do! :thumbsup:
Guest
It is up to you people to influence your state Game and Fish department if you want the Muzzleloading Season to restrict the types of weapons which are legal to hunt with.
It is not the job of the NMLRA to do your job for you. It is totally up to you.
===========================================================
correct BUT
it is also the resoning for the NMLRA to suport and give a voice to to all of us and thus make our vice stronger . if thats not the case then why pay
is it for the Rag ?
maybe a shooting place ?
I can get all that from my local club and putmy money in powder .
what they have done is now add their voice to the other side and when you walk up to that podium and make your statment of
============================================================
This Muzzleloading Hunt is supposed to be an extended hunt beyond the high power rifle season specifically designed for short range single shot muzzleloading weapons which historically have a moderate to low success rate due to their 150-250 year old design. It should not allow modern scoped weapons which equate with long range, high power, single shot rifles."
============================================================
the first thing out of the commisioners mouth is that orginizations like the NMLRA suport Inlines in there mix.
and by there own writing imply that Inlines are base on a 1700 design.
you just losted and you havnt evcen started becouse the NMLRA is sitting the middle of the road for money instead of stepping up behind you
It is not the job of the NMLRA to do your job for you. It is totally up to you.
===========================================================
correct BUT
it is also the resoning for the NMLRA to suport and give a voice to to all of us and thus make our vice stronger . if thats not the case then why pay
is it for the Rag ?
maybe a shooting place ?
I can get all that from my local club and putmy money in powder .
what they have done is now add their voice to the other side and when you walk up to that podium and make your statment of
============================================================
This Muzzleloading Hunt is supposed to be an extended hunt beyond the high power rifle season specifically designed for short range single shot muzzleloading weapons which historically have a moderate to low success rate due to their 150-250 year old design. It should not allow modern scoped weapons which equate with long range, high power, single shot rifles."
============================================================
the first thing out of the commisioners mouth is that orginizations like the NMLRA suport Inlines in there mix.
and by there own writing imply that Inlines are base on a 1700 design.
you just losted and you havnt evcen started becouse the NMLRA is sitting the middle of the road for money instead of stepping up behind you
Guest
Captchee,.... My thots exactly!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
