new guy questions

[KyHeadhunter]

I'm new to muzzleloaders... so new I've not yet fired a shot through a black powder rifle.

I recently aquired a side hammer .50 caliber rifle and have some questions about it.

The stock is real walnut. Trigger guard is brass, and other than small brass plates around the forearm pin, it's the only "hardware" on the stock. The only nomenclature is on the barrel: "Spain", "Springfield Hawken", "Black Powder Only", a small box with "1-66" "50 cal", and a six-digit serial number. 1-66" I know is the rifling, but I have no idea who actually made the gun. It's equipped with a fixed blade from sight, and a rear sight that's adjustable for windage & elevation by means of a screw for each.

The gun fits me very well, and I find it easy to aquire the sights & aim. Outside it's in very good shape, but (isn't there always a "but"), after much scrubbing to remove crud & rust, the barrel is pitted badly. I'd like to know exactly what make/model weapon it is, because I might be interested in getting a replacement barrel. Everything else about the gun screams that I'd love it.

Another question... is a pitted barrel in any way a safety concern? There are no cracks or bulges, and the rifling is visible despite the pitting. I understand accuracy may be poor, but since there is a blackpowder deer season in mid-December, I thought I would try it just to see how bad it is. But only if there's no safety concern. If it's capable of reliably grouping within a whitetails vitals out to 50 yards or so, I'd consider hunting with it as-is until I could get a new barrel.

 

[swoter]

If it was me, I'd shoot it and see how it did. I've seen some awful bores shoot well. Very rare that a rifle is pitted bad enough to be unsafe, especially as thick as most bp rifles barrels are. If you're very concerned you can always take it to a gunsmith and have it looked over, which would probably be best anyway.

 

[jdixon]

IMO, if there are no bulges in the barrel and no visible stress fractures, it will be good to go. That pitting may be an issue with accuracy like you said. By the way, that pitting got there by someone not cleaning the gun after each shooting session, get in the habit, clean the gun afer every shoot. That 1:66 twist will be limiting you to shooting a patched round ball only. Get a box of swagged Horandy round balls in .490 cal. and get some 0.15 thickness patches to start out. Get a tube of T/C Bore Butter for lube while you are there. You can use Pyrodex in that gun but if you don't have a pound of powder around yet, start out right and get a 1 lb. can of Goex 3F or 2F, your choice. You will need a short starter to get those patched balls started, the gun store may have these also. Load - I would start out low until you are certain the gun is sound - 40 grains, working your way up to 75 grains which is a good load for a PRB in .50 cal. Caps - you will probably need #11's, get a tin of those while you are at it. You don't say where in Ky you live, if you are close to my end of the state, drop me a PM I'd make some time to show you what to do on the range.

 

[boar]

Kyheadhunter. You might have a problen with the bore cutting patches,after you shot go out about10 yards and find some patches to check.After you kill your deer get some nice fat of it and put in cast iron skillet and render it. Makes good tallow to shot your next one. Shot them with their own fat. love it. Dilly

 

[Zonie]

As you say your new to muzzleloaders you may not know what your looking at when you check out the condition of the shot patches.

It is normal for the edges to look tattered.
It is normal for the back of the patch to be slightly charred.

It is not normal to see cuts thru the material.
It is not normal to see burned holes where the ball was pinched against the barrel.

If your using some very old (set on the dealers shelf for years) patches, they may tear because the material is weak but these tears look like torn cloth, not like cut with a knife material looks. If your patches look torn, try some new patches before you think about lapping or polishing the bore.

Speaking of patches, do not use any material other than pure 100% cotton. The man made materials will not take the stress and heat and will leave deposits in the bore.

Happy shooting and welcome to the Forum.

 

[KyHeadhunter]

Thanks guys, good stuff. Really hope this turns out to be huntable. It's very unusual for me to be able to shoulder a gun & have it fit right & feel natural when aiming.

I'm from Pendleton county. Hope to try Pioneer Weapons Area for a few days during the late season, though if the planets line up just right I might be able to pull it off during the second week of modern gun.

I'll get me some blackpowder, caps, etc. & try it out. Eventually I can see casting my own bullets, cutting/lubing the patches, etc. Will go with store bought to start.

Like the deer tallow idea. I make selfbows from hickory & osage orange, and arrows from viburnum & dogwood shoots with wild turkey feathers. So using natural materials as much as possible is something that appeals to me.

 

[KyHeadhunter]

Crossed posts with you Zonie, thanks for the tips on checking patches.

What are the consequences of cut patches? Is it a barrel safety issue, or just a harbinger of poor shot groups?

 

[Old40Rod]

If you are at all concerned about the safety conditon of the barrel... take it to a good gunsmith. Its always good to make friends with a good one anywhoos, so start now if you haven't already. They may be able to give you some more ideas about cleaning up the barrel.

:winking:

 

[Pittsburghunter]

I have no idea what you are shooting for a projectile so I will add this.

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
Donald Rumsfeld

 

[Zonie]

Crossed posts with you Zonie, thanks for the tips on checking patches.

What are the consequences of cut patches? Is it a barrel safety issue, or just a harbinger of poor shot groups?

Because I can't see your gun, I can't say it's safe to shoot however, I can make some general comments.

First off, torn patches are not an indicatin that the gun is unsafe. It just won't be accurate.

Black Powder is a fairly weak explosive (compared with smokeless powder). If your shooting patched round balls even with a heavy load of powder, the pressures are not real high so the barrel, breech plug and nipple drum (if it has one) are not under a lot of stress. Add to this the fact that the wall thickness of most modern muzzleloaders is very thick and you can see why a little rust is not a safety issue.

A number of loads and the pressures generated are given in the Lyman Black Powder Handbook.
For instance, a .50 caliber gun shooting a .patched .490 diameter ball over a 110 grain powder load of Goex FFg will have a muzzle velocity of about 1768 FPS. 1229 Ft Lbs of muzzle energy and a chamber pressure of 7,700 PSI.
That pressure would create a force of about 2362 pounds trying to blow the breech plug out of the barrel. The large breech plug threads are easily capable of carrying a 8000+ pound load.

If you are shooting conical bullets the pressure goes up rapidly. For instance if the gun was shooting a 490 grain Buffalo HP Conical the 110 grain powder load will be over 12,000 PSI but that should still be safe if the threads in the gun are in good condition.

By the way, the accuracy of muzzleloading guns often goes down with maximum powder loads.
The idea is to take your gun out and find out what it can do with a moderate load like 75 grains (for a .50 cal) and then work your way up in 5 grain increments until the accuracy starts to get worse or you reach somewhere around (IMO) 110 grains.

I might also mention that out to 100 yards, a .50 caliber (.490 dia patched ball) is a very good deer hunting gun.

 

[jdixon]

Hope to try Pioneer Weapons Area for a few days during the late season, though if the planets line up just right I might be able to pull it off during the second week of modern gun.

Check your hunter's guide - I believe Pioneer Weapons is a Zone 3 area - only open the first week of the modern gun season this year.

 

[KyHeadhunter]

I believe zones 3 & 4 are in from Nov. 12-21. If I went it would be Saturday the 18th through Monday the 21st. It's a longshot anyway, there's not enough time to get a replacement barrel so the one it has now would have to produce acceptable accuracy. Then I'd have to clear the schedule for those three days & I'm not sure I can.

None of the pitting is so deep as to make the barrel weak. Just a lot of them. I just wondered if it would make the ball try to "hang up".

Wow, after 19 years of bowhunting only for deer, 100 yards seems WAY out there to me. I'd be satisfied to hunt with the gun for now if it (& the shooter) are accurate to half that distance. Not sure I could even convince myself to take a shot at 100 yards, though I don't doubt your assessment of a round ball's capability. Of course eventually I'd like it to drive tacks, but 3" or so groups at my comfortable shooting range wouldn't be unacceptable for the present.

 

[KyHeadhunter]

BTW, anyone able to help with what make/model this gun is from the info I posted?

 

[KyHeadhunter]

My apologies for the multiple posts, but I did leave out one detail in the description.

The "receiver" (don't know what it's called on a ml?) area has the case-hardened look.

 

[gmww]

Can you post a picture?

 

[KyHeadhunter]

I'll try to get some up tonight.

 

[jethro224]

BTW, anyone able to help with what make/model this gun is from the info I posted?

From your description it sounds a lot like a CVA Springfield Hawken.
Git out and shoot the dang thing! Then sell off all of yer modern type guns and fill up yer gun cabinet with assorted different muzzleloaders...
You'll need a smallbore for squirrels and bunnies and such, a smoothbore for flyin' critters, a .54 or .58 or sumpin' fer the BIG beasties...
Then you'll find yerself tempted by the hardcore flintlocks...
Blackpowder IS addictive and a .50 percussion gun seems to be the gateway drug. At least that's how it worked for me. I hope you have an understanding wife. :winking:
Jethro

 

[KyHeadhunter]

I'm on it jethro, I'm on it! Got some .490 balls, .015 lubed patches, #11 caps, powder measure, blackpowder, & other assorted ml items today. Gunsmith echoed what's been posted here; don't expect to pick off gnats at 100 paces, but nothing appears unsafe.

The nipple could probably stand replacement, but I'll hold off until I know exactly what gun it is so I can get the right one. The current nipple should function, I can blow air into the opening & it comes out the other side anyway. Is the "drum" the piece that the nipple screws into? That piece has a screw attachment to the barrel, but I can't loosen the screw for love nor money.

Found some pics of the CVA Springfield Hawken, looks like it could be it except it doesn't have the big gaudy brass furniture on the stock. Also looks something like the TC Hawken. Has the same sights I see on them, though I guess the barrels for different brand names could come from the same source?

I got me a fairly understanding wife... you oughta see my garage right now. Osage, black locust & hickory staves agaist the walls, partially finished longbows, viburnum shoots seasoning for arrow shafts, fresh deer sinews drying, wild turkey feathers everywhere, and wood shavings all over the floor.

 

[jethro224]

The drum is the piece the nipple screws into. The screw in the end of the drum is the "clean out screw". The cleanout screw can get stuck from being overtightened, never removed, not lubed, not properly cleaned...

I have a CVA Springfield Hawken in .54 caliber that I bought used. It doesn't have the big gaudy patchbox either. I'm glad. Don't like the looks of 'em.

I had a real devil of a time getting the cleanout screw loose from mine too. Had to tap a close fitting screwdriver pretty hard with a hammer while trying to break it loose. It finally did come out. Had rust holding it in.

If/when you do get the screw loose, be sure to put a little anti-seize lube on the threads before you put it back in. Use a little on the nipple threads too. And don't overtighten either one.

Have fun! :hatsoff:

Jethro

 

[Stumpkiller]

Wow, after 19 years of bowhunting only for deer, 100 yards seems WAY out there to me. I'd be satisfied to hunt with the gun for now if it (& the shooter) are accurate to half that distance.

Good for you. I was a dedicated traditional bowhunter for many years. Now, even a flintlock seems like a space age death machine. Heck, you can take forever to aim or wait long seconds for a deer to move, and even shoot at 3X the 25 yards I used to be limited to.

If only round balls had fletching and a bright nock you could watch disappear behind the deer's shoulder with a satisfying "Thufp!" sound.