newbies like to learn thing from the masters, please forgive me.

[Britsmoothy]

First off. The comments on standard powder measures is correct.
Secondly, to stop spillage into the pan I plug the vent with a prick. Usually once some loading compression is applied the charge usually holds shape.

I have gone over this several times now and I hear the same old same old. I have repeatedly asked for controlled test results of gun failures from using 4f.
To this day none have come forward!
When I joined this board some condemned me for using 3f in shotguns but now that has changed! I was told it's dangerous and I should not encourage it, I was being reckless blah blah blah.

To this day I have not seen a can of 4f with any restrictions for its use.
There is historical evidence for its use.

Just this past weekend I visited 1f in my Bess and it is so inefficient I have to tip so much of the stuff in the gun it breaks all the standard rules of not adding more powder volume wise than shot.
With 4f I can go the other way. I can use 3/4 volume loads of powder and get good patterns with killing velocity.

For some bazar reason some think black powder will exceed what a barrel can take when loaded properly by using 4f.
It won't.
As long as the load moves off in unit with the charge the barrel will keep its integrity. Another aspect is the status of the loaded charge. It is compressed somewhat in battery, more so against the payload once combustion starts and being fine it compacts more than a course powder. Under huge compression forces it becomes a near solid fuel with a natural action of retarding the flame front.
People note it is cleaner burning fouling wise. It is and easy to understand.
When the progressing charge and payload has traveled the barrel some and volume has increased now the powder can consume itself faster and burn hotter and cleaner. It's still safe as everything is now moving.
Now the course fuels do the same but can not produce the same heat once all is moving thus resulting in a lot more crud.
4f is still slower than nitro and yields less pressure, oh and forget burning nitro and black side by side in the open air, it's not a fair comparison as they are not doing any work. Their true nature is apparent via work or payload moving abilities.

I have been using 4f for several years now with common sense (remember that? It use to be quite popular at one time), by starting with low end charges and listening to the gun or rifle. The firearm will tell you in good time if it is not happy.

Some will mock and that is fine but until that day comes whereupon evidence, real solid scientific evidence is presented that proves going from 3f to 4f turns a firearm into a pipe bomb I will continue using it. In fact if I went a store and they only had 1f or 4f I'll take the 4f!

B.

 

[rusty]

Hi Bob, don't think my first message got through or not but
would like no about beach stocks etc I am going to assemble a .58 Cva for a friend 30 years old and have considered buying the Kentucky kit myself.Thank,Duane

 

[Britsmoothy]

I just can't see there being enough of a noticeable benefit to using 4F as a main charge to risk it. If you can get a "crack" and good accuracy with 4F, you can do the same with 3F. And probably 2F. But much safer.

And if you want to experiment or prove a point using 4F, I think at a match or range with innocent bystanders is the worst place to do it.

Just my wacked out opinion.

There are several YouTube videos of muzzleloaders letting go at ranges and as far as I can tell not one of them states it was due to using 4f.

 

[Rat]

At one time, I used to load with a feather stuck in the touch hole, but my practice of doing that fell by the wayside. Even so, it seems I get better ignition when I can see the powder packed up against my touch hole...but one's perception of that (lock time) is not reliable. And again, the dribble only seems to happen once in a while. I suppose that as flintlock shooters, we shouldn't be overly concerned about lock time as long as it's "good". If you don't have good follow-through, you won't shoot one well anyhow.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

rusty,if you or others can tell me how to private message we can talk all we want. its not rocket science and the results will be outstanding.

 

[Britsmoothy]

rusty,if you or others can tell me how to private message we can talk all we want. its not rocket science and the results will be outstanding.

Click on the person's name and look for the private message option or message word.

 

[Sidney Smith]

There are several YouTube videos of muzzleloaders letting go at ranges and as far as I can tell not one of them states it was due to using 4f.

Oh, so I guess since nobody on You tube blew up their gun by using 4fg, then it must be OK right?

Why lead a newbie down a path that could lead him or her to some serious hurt?

When I got into muzzle loaders, I read alot, alot of books articles, etc on how to safely load, shoot, and clean muzzle loaders. Just about every item I read and then later was told by shooters at the range was to NEVER use 4fg as a main charge. There must be something to that then if its been told over and over by people who know what their doing to not use 4fg other than for ignition in the pan. And just because nobody has shown you studies doesn't automatically discount all those others that it is safe to do.

If you want to use 4fg in your guns, then that's on you, but I don't think its right to downplay to a potential new shooter something that has been mentioned time and again as being a bad idea.

 

[Black Hand]

Oh, so I guess since nobody on You tube blew up their gun by using 4fg, then it must be OK right?

Why lead a newbie down a path that could lead him or her to some serious hurt?

When I got into muzzle loaders, I read alot, alot of books articles, etc on how to safely load, shoot, and clean muzzle loaders. Just about every item I read and then later was told by shooters at the range was to NEVER use 4fg as a main charge. There must be something to that then if its been told over and over by people who know what their doing to not use 4fg other than for ignition in the pan. And just because nobody has shown you studies doesn't automatically discount all those others that it is safe to do.

If you want to use 4fg in your guns, then that's on you, but I don't think its right to downplay to a potential new shooter something that has been mentioned time and again as being a bad idea.

Realistically, if the load is reduced to compensate for the decreased granule size & concomitant increased weight per volume, it would be no different than going from FFg to FFFg. If no evidence has been presented to indicate this is unsafe, unproven word-of-mouth/anecdotal "my Buddy's cousin's wife's third husband said..." doesn't really carry any weight. Here we have someone with real-life practical results using FFFFg as the main charge which trumps the "I was told that FFFFg should NEVER be used for anything other than priming..." Unfortunately, the number of times something has been said has no bearing on the truth/accuracy of that being said. If that were the case, everything about conspiracy "theories", urban legends and government statements would be true - and we KNOW this isn't the case...

 

[54ball]

Realistically, if the load is reduced to compensate for the decreased granule size & concomitant increased weight per volume, it would be no different than going from FFg to FFFg. If no evidence has been presented to indicate this is unsafe, unproven word-of-mouth/anecdotal "my Buddy's cousin's wife's third husband said..." doesn't really carry any weight. Here we have someone with real-life practical results using FFFFg as the main charge which trumps the "I was told that FFFFg should NEVER be used for anything other than priming..." Unfortunately, the number of times something has been said has no bearing on the truth/accuracy of that being said. If that were the case, everything about conspiracy "theories", urban legends and government statements would be true - and we KNOW this isn't the case...

Firstly this whole topic is a "ringer". Troll is too strong a word I guess, but this same topic by the same poster has been discussed on another online forum 2 years ago...Same topic..same results.

Blackhand, Data?, Hard data? Well there is no hard data for 4f loads because none are currently published and none are recommended. Those that do choose such loads do so at their own risk.

In this case omission and deletion may be the best evidence going by the black powder manuals. There used to be 4F loads published for revolvers only in the Lyman Hand book but that was nearly 45 years ago. As far as I know there is no recommended 4f load for a big bore rifle.

In my previous post I mentioned the potential unpredictability of 4f. Now is 4F really 4F or is it 4f grains and smaller? Is it graded consistently? I hope you can see all the variables in this.

Exploring this whole 4f thing is going off the rails. It's going from researched fact based data (standard published loadings) to my Buddy's cousin's wife's third husband said..4f is perfectly OK, not only that ...it's a match winner.

I am not prepared to say 4f is a safe load. For the sake of anyone (a newbie to the sport) reading this (maybe 10 years from now) I cannot and will not recommend a 4 f load due to the reasons already stated.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Oh, so I guess since nobody on You tube blew up their gun by using 4fg, then it must be OK right?

Why lead a newbie down a path that could lead him or her to some serious hurt?

When I got into muzzle loaders, I read alot, alot of books articles, etc on how to safely load, shoot, and clean muzzle loaders. Just about every item I read and then later was told by shooters at the range was to NEVER use 4fg as a main charge. There must be something to that then if its been told over and over by people who know what their doing to not use 4fg other than for ignition in the pan. And just because nobody has shown you studies doesn't automatically discount all those others that it is safe to do.

If you want to use 4fg in your guns, then that's on you, but I don't think its right to downplay to a potential new shooter something that has been mentioned time and again as being a bad idea.

You are mis quoting me, you're missing the context.

My comment was in reply to exposing innocent bystanders at a public range by using 4f.
While there is evidence of subjecting innocent bystanders at public ranges to danger none ( as I am aware) are from 4f being used.


I have said this over and over and over.

Where are the warnings from the manufactures ?
Where are all the simple experiments to settle this issue?

Nearly everyone is concerned with safety in this matter but they still drive, ride and fly. All of which evidence can be produced to subgest they are in danger from those three forms of travel. Certainly more than using 4f in a firearm!

 

[billraby]

Lots of practice makes more of a difference than what kind of powder you use.

 

[Eutycus]

I regret saying that CVA guns are looked down upon. I take back what I said about a positive mention of CVA guns. Looking back on older threads several times it mentioned how accurate CVAs were.That would require a "positive" mention. Also these guns were mentioned with a certain fondness when recalling the good old days. I still say they are far from top of the line but they were and are fun aren't they?

 

[54ball]

As a muzzleloader manufacturer who makes barrels I must comment on using 4 Fg as a main charge. This is exactly the kind of situation that keeps me awake at night. Despite all the warnings and "common knowledge" out there, there will always be somebody who thinks he knows better. Then we see his name in the obituaries along with a friend or two. Here's the deal. I and any reputable barrel maker make our barrels almost indestructable. We have to guard against the occasional double charge that will inevitbly happen. Then some (blanketyblank) comes along and insists that he can get away with using a FFFFg main charge. Believe me there is NO ADVANTAGE to using a 90 grain charge of FFFFg in any gun. So then he gets distracted one day while loading, doubles the charge and boom. Game over for him, bystanders, and me and my insurance company.

One of the earlier responses to this topic said it is not unusual to use 4 Fg for a main charge. I beg to differ with you sir. It should never be done. Please let's not have this be seen as normal. If your gun won't shoot unless you load it with FFFFg then you are doing something wrong or you need a new gun.

Respectfully,
Matt Denison aka laffin dog
North Star West, Inc.

Thank you , Matt, for chiming in on this. I thought I had lost my marbles as I have never seen so much written about how its Okay to use 4Fg powder in the barrel for a main charge. This began when a regular member mentioned that he had worked up loads in his TC using $fg powder but stopped at 50 grains! because hsi gun didn't blow up, he thought it was okay to use 4Fg powder in the barrel!!!

Then along comes this guy saying he is going to use 90 grains of FFFFg, powder for a main charge! My only thought is to shake the man's hand while its still attached to the rest of him.

More than 30 years ago, a man walked into a local sporting goods store wanting to know where he could buy a Left Handed Hawken rifle. Since the owner of the store wouldn't know one black powder rifle from another, but knew I was the Lawyer for my local club, he told the man to talk to me.

This man was huge. Late 20s, 6'5", 260 lbs of muscles and very little fat- appeared to have worked out of doors most of his life. He told me had fired his buddy's T/C Hawken, in .50 caliber that weekend, and it hurt his shoulder so badly that after 5 shots, he decided the stock just didn't fit him. I asked him what projectile he was shooting, and he said the " Maxi-ball ", from the same company. Then I asked him how much powder he was shooting under that maxi-ball, and he said, " 150 !" I asked him if that was FFg or FFFg powder, and he said FFFg Powder! I then asked him where he got that load? He claimed the salesman at some discount store had told hid buddy to use that load!

I reached out with my hand and asked him to shake it. He tentatively put his hand out and asked me why I wanted to shake his hand. I looked him straight in the eye and told him quietly, " because it is still attached !!"

I then explained the difference between proof loads, and target loads. The store where he bought the gun was out of 50 cal. ball, so they sold him the maxi-ball, and told them, " they are just as good ". I gave the man the address for the NMLRA, and told him to join. The magazine, Muzzle Blasts was full of ads then advertising custom made Left Handed Hawken and orher style BL rifles. At the time, no one was marketing a LH anything, commercially made. I also told the guy to use 2Fg powder, reduce that load to 50 grain, and not to exceed 90 grains, with a Round ball. I told him where he could buy round ball in town, and that while the owner of the store did not regularly carry black powder or balls and caps, he would be glad to order them for a customer, and call you when they come in. I gave him my business card, the name of the local club, and directions to our range so he could come down and shoot with other ML shooters and learn all the tricks. I explained in the sternest terms and demeanor that T/C, like other manufacturers over build their barrels and rifles to protect themselve from lawsuits by people like his buddy who rely on the statements of some Jerk in a discount store, rather than get proper loading information from the manufacturer, or from more reliable sources. I told him that it was this kind of thing that his buddy did that keeps civil defense lawyers up at night worried about whether than can save their clients from financial ruin because a jury may just feel sorry enough for a plaintiff to award him a huge judgement when the defendant did everything possible to keep this kind of accident from happening, enclosing detailed safety warnings in the literature that goes out with each gun( only to be lost or misplaced in the backrooms of those discount stores ) etc. If you wonder why you now see guns on racks with plastic ties through the trigger guard, through a plastic bag that holds a booklet with the factory instructions in them, so that the manufacturer is less likely to become a victim of these discount store clowns, now you know.

Don't use priming powder as a main charge. Don't use it as a " priming charge " with the substitute powders. ( talk about spikes in the pressure curves!!!) Priming powder is for Priming, ONLY.

If it were not so hard to find 4Fg powder, I would also use it firing blanks. It does make a much bigger boom with less powder than using 3Fg for that purpose. I don't remember reading any recommendations in old Lyman loading manuals about using 4Fg in any guns, but then there is a lot of stuff written many years ago that we no long would trust. I can remember when Dad's first manual did not show a velocity, or energy data for various load, as the authors did not have access to chronographs, which were large affairs, often built in house by the ammo companies in their indoor ranges.

I played around with small charges of 4Fg powder when I was young, taking a lot of precautions to not damage the gun, or injure anyone. It became apparently very quickly that you could not trust the powder to burn at the same rate shot after shot, and we abandoned using it for anything other than priming a flintlock. I don't think we even got up to the 50 grains of 4Fg powder that Roundball reports using in one of his guns before he stopped. I do remember that the last amount we used gave us that ' whoo-00-00- whee-ee-ee ! " feeling of being glad to have survived! And we were surprise that there was no damage to the gun.

This was 12 years ago. Paul has passed away. The last I heard Matt was not doing well....

In that time there have been some failures with blanks in reenacting and home demos. Also there have been failures with Triple 7 loaded up as a blanks. I conversed with Paul a few times over the years and I feel that today he would not recommend 4f even as a blank load.

 

[Britsmoothy]

This was 12 years ago. Paul has passed away. The last I heard Matt was not doing well....

In that time there have been some failures with blanks in reenacting and home demos. Also there have been failures with Triple 7 loaded up as a blanks. I conversed with Paul a few times over the years and I feel that today he would not recommend 4f even as a blank load.

Feelings and anecdotes friend.

The Witch troll thingy or Mr Ringer.
You can all burn me at the stake it don't matter. Oh and the earth ain't flat and we definitely go around the sun.

 

[Darkhorse]

I agree, this topic is a "Ringer" and not for the first time has the use of unsafe shooting practices been suggested to new shooters.
Personally I think it's a shame that one must be so forceful in trying to convince others to try 4fg as the main powder.
For those that really need to know how to load a flintlock heed this simple instruction. Use 1fg, 2fg or 3fg to load your main charge. Prime your pan with 3fg or 4fg. That's it. Period.
The only safe use for 4fg is as the prime.
If the only safety test is whether or not you blow up your gun in your face then that's a stupid test.
If you deviate from this simple instruction then you are a fool. Period.
Now do it right and enjoy yourself safely.

 

[TFoley]

You are mis quoting me, you're missing the context.
My comment was in reply to exposing innocent bystanders at a public range by using 4f.
While there is evidence of subjecting innocent bystanders at public ranges to danger none ( as I am aware) are from 4f being used.

There are no public rifle ranges in UK - even shotgun grounds have controlled entry. You can't just womble in to see what all the noise is about.
I can't speak for shotgunners, since I don't shoot a shotgun, but I can advise anybody reading this that I'll be hiding behind the nearby tree stand and watching through binoculars as a shotgunner loads up his 150 y/o gun with 4Fg.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I'm done here.
I was asked for my experience, I gave it plus my opinion.
Finished.

 

[Black Hand]

Another fine example of people being unable to discern fact from opinion...
I'll take fact any day, as it is based in reality rather than fear of an unknown boogeyman jumping out of the dark (and causing their gun to explode).

 

[Dr5x]

IF YOU HAVE AN INEXPENSIVE, NO FRILLS RIFLE WITH A GREEN MOUNTAIN BARREL AND CHARLIE HAS A QUITE EXPENSIVE rifle with fancy inlays a spectacular grained wood stock and Silver instead of brass and the same Green Mountain barrel, you have both got the same rifle but Charlie's might look a bit nicer over the fireplace..

When coaching at the range, I miss doing that, I worked with really beautiful guns and some that looked to be just a grade or two above trash. If the barrels were K They could both shoot equally well.
If the CVA rifle has a good barrel it is as good as any other rifle with a similar sized barrel in equal condition.

Think of a pretty girl in fancy attire and the same girl in old worn out attire.







in this country there is a tendency to judge things by their cost. A thousand dollar painting is by definition better than a hundred dollar painting. with no consideration of what the painting is like.

Dutch

Maybe I'm kind of dense, or don't pay attention to some things, but I've never noticed an attitude that CVA rifles were not worthy. Being enthusiasts I believe there are a large number of us who have custom rifles, but I don't think any of us started out that way. But again, I must have missed something along the way. I don't/haven't see(n) where CVA rifles are looked down upon.

It's always been my understanding that when a rifle starts to "crack", that just means the ball has exceeded the speed of sound, which is around 1150fps. Or 1125, or something like that. 80 grains of ffffg in a .50 would certainly exceed 1100fps. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

i didnt want to start a fight. im very happy for all the input. ive read it all and even can put somethings together from all the info that is between the line. maybe it is better to weigh 4f and work up slow with cronograph ect then it can be used. all i know that in a modern american made good steel 50 cal barrel 80 grains by volume behind a patched linen round ball it shot great with not much fowling. i wouldnt try it in a old old gun or a lighter barrel. the reason i put the post up here is to get every possible experience from every on. now i do have to tell some thing neg about 4f i read years ago. a cot ssa shooter compress 4f into 1 45 long colt case behind a 250 grain bullets and ruined his gun. i dont know if it was a old colt or a modern steel colt but it did the gun no good. that isnt a muzzleloader but one has to think about what happened to that gun. the brit shooter, dont feel bad, you figured out what works for you and it really does work. all the rest of remember their is always no one answer to any problem. if more input comes in i will put it into my brain computer and add to my knowlege. about two years ago a shooter from the east coast called me and was talking to me about a custom build. he said most in his gun club shot flinters. now none of you are going to like this but he said most of his club loads this way. black down the barrel up to the touch hole. then the main charge is blackhorn 209 powder. they did this because their was never ever any wipeing between rounds. the black set off the hard to set off 209 powder. but he said the bore was very clean between shot. dont get mad at me, im just telling what they do in this club. this site is about shareing and learning. as to finishing a beech wood stock ill put a post on the gun building site soon for every one to read and refer to. beech wood is a good wood if you know what to do with it,blackhillsbob.