newbies like to learn thing from the masters, please forgive me.

[Dr5x]

I have always compared rifles by their barrels, , Grenadier points out that even if the barrels are good the e peripheral Sights, and locks anall the hardware thaallows you to shoot that good barrel are defective then you have a basis for comparison other than the barrels alone.
Mu Richland Arms .45 Flintlock had a flawed barrel and I was unhappy with the flintlock. I was also a big time newbie and probably didn't know how to adjust that lock. The replacement lock worked excellently from day one but it might have just been better adjusted than the original.

When you are a newbie as I was, there was no where togo for help. I readThe ML Daplock rifle in its entirety and there was no help there. Sam Fadala led me in various directions which also didn't help. I had pretty much decided a 4 inch group, bench at 50 yards was all I could hope for. Then one day a guy in full 18th century rural regalia showed up and was getting 1 and two inch groups offhand that caused me to settle down and study the problem.

Dutch

In general, the barrels provided in the CVA or Traditions rifles were very good. Many of the CVA rifles would be used to win many a match. They still do at my gun club. The problem with CVA was the use of the beech wood and the cheapness of the locks to cut costs. The percussion locks could function okay. The flint locks were a source of much anguish. Some work okay even though the springs were weak and sparking less than exciting. One of the reasons that in the 1970's and 1980's flint lock firearms were considered a joke and absolutely not to be used if reliability was necessary.

 

[Lobo3603]

Using 4f as a primary charge is just waiting for something to happen. 4F is only used as a primer charge for flint locks. The finer grain and added oxygen area of 4F creates a much greater chamber pressure. If you look at any newer manufactures recommendation of powder size you will find that 3F is used up to and including 50 cal., 2 F is used for 50 cal. and up. 2 and 1F are used for fowlers 12 ga. up to 1 bore and of corse there is cannon powder above that. 4F should never be used down the barrel not even as a duplex load. Duplex loading is extremely dangerous do to differences in chamber pressures. You have had the little people on your side and very lucky that you haven't lost fingers or worse injured a fellow shooter.
As for the power running out of the touch hole, as most that have flash in the pans with finter's they automatically drill the touch hole bigger to over come the failure to ignite. The hole in a new liner is just fine and 3 F will not run out. Try Picking the hole to create a larger ignition area in the breach.
Please,Please do not use 4F as a primary charge, your fingers, face and fellow shooters will thanks you.

 

[Black Hand]

Using 4f as a primary charge is just waiting for something to happen. 4F is only used as a primer charge for flint locks. The finer grain and added oxygen area of 4F creates a much greater chamber pressure. If you look at any newer manufactures recommendation of powder size you will find that 3F is used up to and including 50 cal., 2 F is used for 50 cal. and up. 2 and 1F are used for fowlers 12 ga. up to 1 bore and of corse there is cannon powder above that. 4F should never be used down the barrel not even as a duplex load. Duplex loading is extremely dangerous do to differences in chamber pressures. You have had the little people on your side and very lucky that you haven't lost fingers or worse injured a fellow shooter.
As for the power running out of the touch hole, as most that have flash in the pans with finter's they automatically drill the touch hole bigger to over come the failure to ignite. The hole in a new liner is just fine and 3 F will not run out. Try Picking the hole to create a larger ignition area in the breach.
Please,Please do not use 4F as a primary charge, your fingers, face and fellow shooters will thanks you.

And yet, I've been using 80 grains of FFFg in a 62 caliber for 15 or more years.

Can you (or anyone else) PLEASE show me something where TESTING has been done that SHOWS me what you are claiming (i.e. that FFFFg will blow your gun to smithereens if you happen to load some/any amount as a main charge). Until that happens, I will accept the experience of someone who uses FFFFg as a main charge. As previously stated, these "word of mouth" assertions are to be taken with a bag of salt. Just because someone said it, doesn't make it true (or false). When someone shows me the facts/evidence which I can use to make my own decision, then we'd be on to something...

 

[George]

i didnt want to start a fight.

I've figured out how to prevent fights.

Don't post.

Nothing else works.

Spence

 

[Black Hand]

I'd rather challenge the accepted & often unproven/unsupported dogma and get to the facts.
And facts are very inconvenient things indeed, as they shed light on the darkness encouraged by ignorance and the acceptance of dogma.

 

[Carbon 6]

The one problem I have noticed with using 4ffff is that because it is small, it can sometimes flow though vent holes or completely fill drums, and god help you if you use it in an inline rifle.

 

[Sidney Smith]

I agree, this topic is a "Ringer" and not for the first time has the use of unsafe shooting practices been suggested to new shooters.
Personally I think it's a shame that one must be so forceful in trying to convince others to try 4fg as the main powder.
For those that really need to know how to load a flintlock heed this simple instruction. Use 1fg, 2fg or 3fg to load your main charge. Prime your pan with 3fg or 4fg. That's it. Period.
The only safe use for 4fg is as the prime.
If the only safety test is whether or not you blow up your gun in your face then that's a stupid test.
If you deviate from this simple instruction then you are a fool. Period.
Now do it right and enjoy yourself safely.

+1. This post says it all, and any newbie would be wise to read and take heed.

Listening to those who say that, since no "evidence" can be produced to back up the claims of countless individuals, as to the dangers of using 4fg as a main charge, is not worth your life and limb, or that of an innocent bystander to tempt fate.

 

[Black Hand]

+1. This post says it all, and any newbie would be wise to read and take heed.

Listening to those who say that, since no "evidence" can be produced to back up the claims of countless individuals, as to the dangers of using 4fg as a main charge, is not worth your life and limb, or that of an innocent bystander to tempt fate.

No one is telling anyone to do anything - A question was asked and answered. The rest was people screaming "You can't" or "You shouldn't" or "Ole Thunderlips says to use FFFFg as prime ONLY". A collection of histrionic hand-waving unsupported by evidence.

I am not interested in using or ever have used FFFFg as a main charge, but that isn't the point. Someone here has, and provided his personal experience in doing so - all people have done is tell him "You can't" or "You shouldn't" or "Ole Thunderlips says to use FFFFg as prime ONLY". It's just poor form...

Take the information and make your own decision. Now, if you can't understand that overloading any gun with powder is a bad idea and that you must have an understanding that loads need to be adjusted for powder granulation, then you shouldn't own a gun. But then again, there are many people out there I wouldn't trust to pick up dog poop from my front yard because they might hurt themselves.

 

[Juice Jaws]

Another fine example of people being unable to discern fact from opinion...
I'll take fact any day, as it is based in reality rather than fear of an unknown boogeyman jumping out of the dark (and causing their gun to explode).

I have a question for you, in reading a lot of the old writings , we read about a shipment of fine powder or a shipment of course powder. What does that mean, I would think fine powder is along the lines of 4F and course powder is along the lines of 2F. Sounds like they use both for the main charge, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Black Hand]

I have a question for you, in reading a lot of the old writings , we read about a shipment of fine powder or a shipment of course powder. What does that mean, I would think fine powder is along the lines of 4F and course powder is along the lines of 2F. Sounds like they use both for the main charge, what are your thoughts on this?

I don't think this is a crazy assumption. Their powder granules were likely less standardized than today and the quality varied.

 

[Carbon 6]

I have a question for you, in reading a lot of the old writings , we read about a shipment of fine powder or a shipment of course powder. What does that mean, I would think fine powder is along the lines of 4F and course powder is along the lines of 2F. Sounds like they use both for the main charge, what are your thoughts on this?

I would think along the lines of musket and cannon powder.

 

[Black Hand]

I would think along the lines of musket and cannon powder.

Reasonable assumption as well. Images of period powder look like FFg, but it is difficult to really tell or whether this is "coarse" or "fine".

 

[Juice Jaws]

I don't think this is a crazy assumption. Their powder granules were likely less standardized than today and the quality varied.

Ok, but you are making a guess, does anyone know what fine powder and course powder was 200 years ago??

 

[Juice Jaws]

I would think along the lines of musket and cannon powder.

Good guess, but I was looking more to facts.

 

[George]

You guys do know that they were using the F system of grading powder early on in the 18th century, don't you?

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
September 25, 1736
Charleston, South Carolina
JUST imported in the King George, Jacob Ayres from London,...bullets, shot, F FF FFF gunpowder,

Also glazed and unglazed:

The Pennsylvania Gazette
July 12, 1739
JUST IMPORTED,...Cutlery Ware, Dutch Gun Flints, drop Shot, mould ditto, and bar Lead, (Fly ye Plovers!) Gun Powder glazed and unglazed in twelve Pound Caggs,

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
June 11, 1741
Loaf Sugar, Gun Powder in half Barrels FF and FFF, Bullets, Strouds, Indian Trading Guns, Mens and Boys Felt Hats

The Pennsylvania Gazette
January 7, 1752
Imported (chiefly) in the Myrtilla, the last ship from London,
....best London steel, shot, F, FF, and FFF gunpowder....

The Pennsylvania Gazette
September 27, 1758
Lately imported from London, Bristol and Liverpool,
....ruff and glazed F and FF gunpowder in quarter casks, bar lead, pigeon, duck and goose shot, firkins of English gun flints , also best oil flints ,

Spence

 

[Juice Jaws]

I'm done here.
I was asked for my experience, I gave it plus my opinion.
Finished.

Brit, don't leave yet, you have lots of background on this, sit back and wait, think and then give us some of your thought's.

 

[Black Hand]

Ok, but you are making a guess, does anyone know what fine powder and course powder was 200 years ago??

As most of the powder was imported from England, the text below might give an indication
By the late 19th century manufacturing focused on standard grades of black powder from Fg used in large bore rifles and shotguns, through FFg (medium and small-bore arms such as muskets and fusils), FFFg (small-bore rifles and pistols), and FFFFg (extreme small bore, short pistols and most commonly for priming flintlocks).[106] A coarser grade for use in military artillery blanks was designated A-1. These grades were sorted on a system of screens with oversize retained on a mesh of 6 wires per inch, A-1 retained on 10 wires per inch, Fg retained on 14, FFg on 24, FFFg on 46, and FFFFg on 60. Fines designated FFFFFg were usually reprocessed to minimize explosive dust hazards.[107] In the United Kingdom, the main service gunpowders were classified RFG (rifle grained fine) with diameter of one or two millimeters and RLG (rifle grained large) for grain diameters between two and six millimeters.[104]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder - more information there.

 

[azmntman]

If 4f changes a rifle or pistol into a pipe bomb why is there no warning printed on the can? In 2019 when one can become "new money" by spilling a cup of coffee in there lap I would think if it were a known and verified danger it would be so stated in BOLD letters on every container?

I do plan to try it in my .31 1849 as the power I am getting with 3f is not great (I can often see the ball in the pine tree?) Even when I was a kid with a BB gun I wanted one that would stick in wood or better. The ol red ryder was NOT powerful enough for me. Crossman's were and are great.

 

[Harry A]

Newbie, learning a lot here, thanks to all. Looking for my first ‘flinter’ and seek comments on Loyalist Arms, Charleville Carbine in particular. Thanks in advance.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

i hope facts keep going here and the brit, dont give up, i like reading your stuff. does your guns have less fouling from the 4f use? also a 31 cal. would benifit from4f, red rider does bring back memories. my first gun, then dads old .22 from the 1920/s. then the m1 and a bar and a old s and w i conviscated. out shot 70 marines with them all. i know guys this a way way off topic, old men do that, please forgive me but the red ryder thing got me going.