Newer CNC locks?

[Robby]

I cannot speak for Jim Kibler, that isn't my place. It started out as a somewhat light hearted comment, I can't believe all the push back, good Lord! Well, I'm sure someone will see their way clear at making left hand locks someday and in the mead time, I and others alike will make do because growing up in a right handed world and adapting things is a first nature instinct and For those that don't have that, you literally do not know what you don't know.
Robin

 

[rich pierce]

A $60 margin on selling a lock after cost of machining, heat treating, and assembly would be a good return. Lets count marketing costs and time spent answering hundreds of emails and processing hundreds of small orders and mailing them. Let’s say you could sell 500 units a year. $30,000 for your 1000-2000 hours of work. Yep it’s work buying steel, running CNC machines, heat treating or sending things out for heat treating, assembling, testing, marketing, processing orders, mailing, corresponding. Now let’s say it cost you 600 hours to study an original lock, program each part and location for CNC. Get a couple prototypes made, and test them and make needed changes. If you count your skilled time at $30 an hour you’ve got $18,000 in setup costs. We are not counting CNC equipment yet.
Best case scenario you spent about 2000 hours for $12,000 to create and make the locks in the first 18 months. Have at it!

 

[Robby]

Lets make up a bunch of fantasy figures and justify a mythical stance where none exists. Nothing ventured nothing gained, like a man sitting in a cold cave waiting for lightning to strike so he can start a fire. Like the song says, nothing from nothing is nothing. I am so glad there are young men with ideas and the will to see them through.
Robby

 

[R.J.Bruce]

I sympathize with people who are left-handed, and would like a left-handed flintlock.

Unlike my sister, who is naturally ambidextrous, I am able to teach myself to do things left-handed with a bit of hard work. Swinging a bat at a ball came easily, shaving my head took quite a bit of time (and nicks!).

A broken wrist, broken fingers, and osteoarthritis has convinced me to learn to do as many things as possible with both hands.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I think if you watch Jim Kibler’s films on his CNC locks, you’ll see they are really amazing!

 

[rich pierce]

Lets make up a bunch of fantasy figures and justify a mythical stance where none exists. Nothing ventured nothing gained, like a man sitting in a cold cave waiting for lightning to strike so he can start a fire. Like the song says, nothing from nothing is nothing. I am so glad there are young men with ideas and the will to see them through.
Robby

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. It does take someone to do something sometimes. We are not exactly in a crisis here. People have been getting by with non- CNC locks for 300 years. What I am arguing is that saying “It’s easy so somebody (not me!) should do it” will not get it done. So, if really passionate about it, go for it!

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I cannot speak for Jim Kibler, that isn't my place. It started out as a somewhat light hearted comment, I can't believe all the push back, good Lord! Well, I'm sure someone will see their way clear at making left hand locks someday and in the mead time, I and others alike will make do because growing up in a right handed world and adapting things is a first nature instinct and For those that don't have that, you literally do not know what you don't know.
Robin

Robby, I meant no harm and hope I didn’t offend! ☹

 

[Robby]

None taken Smokey.
Robby

 

[Robby]

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. It does take someone to do something sometimes. We are not exactly in a crisis here. People have been getting by with non- CNC locks for 300 years. What I am arguing is that saying “It’s easy so somebody (not me!) should do it” will not get it done. So, if really passionate about it, go for it!

I don't know what your real problem is, you have said nothing of any relevance to what I said. Maybe you should get of your fantasy high horse,
Robby

 

[rich pierce]

Why ride a low horse? They call them ponies, I think. Have a fine day!

 

[Robby]

Again, I don't know what your real problem is. This isn't the first thread, nor the first forum I've gotten cheap shots fro you. You want to continue this, do it with a PM. This isn't fair to the rest of the guys.
Robby

 

[Spikebuck]

Owning a CNC machine, and using it for several years for production., it would not be that involved to "flip" the model. The software I use would take about 15-20 minutes to invert the model, rotate it 180 degrees around the x axis and rerun the toolpaths. Tooling profiles would not change but the material hold-downs would. Have done this many times making left and right hand projects.

Material nor labor costs would not increase, but the time involved in producing left hand locks would interfere with the production of the bread and butter right hand locks. The demand has to be there.

My wife was a machinist for over 20 years with most of her time programming and running CNC's. I asked her that very question regarding being able to flip not just the locks for lefties, but in the case of Kibler, the rifle stock as well. Her assessment was similar to yours....not hard at all. In fact, where she worked, they many times had to make mirrored parts for right and left sides that required doing exactly that.

I'm not assessing the "economic viability" question brought up by others....only saying that it's not that big of a deal to make mirror image parts on a CNC once the programming is done for either a right or left version.

 

[Nameless Hunter]

A $60 margin on selling a lock after cost of machining, heat treating, and assembly would be a good return. Lets count marketing costs and time spent answering hundreds of emails and processing hundreds of small orders and mailing them. Let’s say you could sell 500 units a year. $30,000 for your 1000-2000 hours of work. Yep it’s work buying steel, running CNC machines, heat treating or sending things out for heat treating, assembling, testing, marketing, processing orders, mailing, corresponding. Now let’s say it cost you 600 hours to study an original lock, program each part and location for CNC. Get a couple prototypes made, and test them and make needed changes. If you count your skilled time at $30 an hour you’ve got $18,000 in setup costs. We are not counting CNC equipment yet.
Best case scenario you spent about 2000 hours for $12,000 to create and make the locks in the first 18 months. Have at it!

Sorry, but I have to disagree on your estimate of large amounts of hours and development cost to develop/make a left hand version. I've designed, built, and sold enough CNC machining systems, laser cutters, and waterjet cutters to have some idea of the costs (and hours) involved in new product development. As has been already said, programming (and making) a mirrored part is not that difficult. Several hours of CAD/CAM work and new part fixturing. Then it's just load the parts and hit the green button. That is, IF you have the time available on your current CNC equipment (and the extra people). There's the rub. And, as you noted, after making the effort (money) to get it all set up, how long to recoup the cost (how many will you sell in a given time). You should love what you are doing but it's also a business, and bills have to be paid. BTW, the standard shop labor rate is figured at about $60 per hour.

If I were to venture a SWAG (Scientific Wild A** Guess), the "most likely" issue for Jim (and I AM guessing) is keeping up with "right hand" production with his current equipment and production staff (especially with a virus impacting the economy). I have zero knowledge about Jim's current inventory of equipment or staffing (who among us does), but I'd guess if he wasn't already putting in 60+ hours a week, he would have a left hand rifle in the schedule... OTOH, when you have a fixed number of hours in a week, do you spend it on a fowler, or trade gun, or a left hand Colonial?

As to the OP's opening question, CNC is definitely the way to go (if you have the production to pay for the equipment). Hard to beat accuracy AND repeatability.

 

[user 34300]

What is the opinion of the newer CNC locks? Better than the best of the old school models?

Mass market production locks....light years better. IF you're criteria is how the parts fit, the parts finish, how well the lock works, and how long it will last to be "better", then the the CNC locks are far better. You can pay $220 for a CNC lock that is build like a Swiss watch. You can pay $120 for a piece of junk slapped together from ill fitting unfinished cast parts. It is like comparing a Chinese made digital watch to a Rolex. Making the case that the China watch is "just as good" is ridiculous.

 

[rich pierce]

I knows a guy. His name is Chris Laubach. He’s made a complete CNC lock. I’ll go with real data on how long it takes and what it costs versus informed estimates from someone who has not made one.
Robby, I’m not sure why offering opposing views is some form of persecution.

 

[user 34300]

At half the price, Ill stick with Chamber's locks.

That is not true. Chambers lists their flintlocks for $195. Jim Kibler list his CNC Ketland for $235. This is 17% more and a bargain for what you get.

 

[ekettenburg]

What's wrong with Chambers later (or early for that matter) Ketland lock?

 

[BV]

I doubt you'll find anyone who says there is anything wrond with Chambers locks.

 

[EC121]

Nothing wrong with Chambers products. The fanboys just want the latest and greatest. While it is precisely made, I don't see how Mr. Laubach's lock is $200 faster in lock time than one of Jim's. However, it does fit a style category that some may want for their work.

 

[Art Caputo]

While my recent acquisition of a Kibler Colonial leaves me impressed with the contemporary design/machining aspects of the lock, from a performance standpoint, it would not discourage me from using one of the traditional locks(ie Chambers/Siler), given the performance and long term reliability I have experienced. IMO, the CNC advantage is far more influential relative to the ease, and exacting fitment when assembling Kibers kit(lock, trigger, barrel, stock, etc).