Woodsrunner CNC Incised Carving

[James Kibler]

Really, it's okay if this carving doesn't fit your taste. It would be nice if those critical of the way it's executed in terms of design style etc are knowledgeable about original work. The reason is this.... By stating it's machine cut or doesn't look right because it's cut with a machine is suggesting that it's not made with the same design standards as original work. It's a way of passing judgment.

The real question is why do some like to be critical of this carving? It may be as simple as expressing a taste, but sometimes it's more. Sometimes it's because they might make guns by hand and these things are a bit threating. Maybe they might like the notion of rustic and hand-made versus machine made. Also, being critical is sometimes a way of propping your own efforts up. Maybe your work is a little naive, rough when compared and it's nice to think that originals were also this way. I don't know...

Herein lies the problem in my view... Most or should I say the vast majority of those who try to carve a gunstock are not at all capable of doing this to a very high level. This is just being honest. They may enjoy the process, feel proud of their efforts etc. but when comparing it to good original or contemporary work, it just doesn't come close to measuring up. This is just honesty...

So what are the options with a kit? How many can hand carve a stock with any degree of skill? How many can hand carve a stock such that it can be as good or better than the incised machine made version? I can answer this... VERY few. This is because I've seen hundreds or thousands of attempts. I've studied orginals. I've taught many carving classes. I'm viewed as one of the better contempary longrifle carvers etc. I'd like to think that my opinion holds some merit.

It might be nice to see some hand carved versions that you like? Maybe this will help me understand.

Also, it might be helpful to look at this carving specifically and perhaps you could share, what makes this look "machine made" and not representative of original work.

 

[Collie]

I think Mr. Kibler made some good points here. Some people probably just don't like that a machine is doing it instead of a skilled craftsman and that's fine, to each their own. People get too worked up on this forum too easily.

Carving isn't for everyone, I prefer a plain stock myself. However, if you want a beautifully carved stock this is a great way of getting one. It will be consistently good like everything from Kibler's and for much less than the cost of hiring a professional builder that's capable of quality carving to carve a stock for you.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple as that.

 

[PathfinderNC]

This is certainly an engaging conversation that seems to be going in circles.
Let’s not insert innuendos where there were none however.
“ By stating it's machine cut or doesn't look right because it's cut with a machine is suggesting that it's not made with the same design standards as original work. It's a way of passing judgment.”
Not true at all!
I don’t know how that correlation was made except by conjecture or assumption.
Opinions were shared about method (machine) and not about design. It’s really that simple.
What more can be said? Nothing any more by me at least.
Yes, sometimes “a cigar is just a cigar”.
Best wishes and continued success in all you do. I have been a big supporter of Kibler Longrifles for years and continue to be one.

 

[James Kibler]

Okay then... Here is your comment:

"It looks like machine carving. If that’s ok with you, go for it"

So, isn't it reasonable to take the next step and conclude that if it "looks like machine carving" this implies that it doesn't look like hand carving?

Am I understanding this correctly? If not, help me out.

So I ask, if you agree that it doesn't look like hand carving, why do you feel this way? Please refer to the photo I posted and cite examples of why.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Okay then... Here is your comment:

"It looks like machine carving. If that’s ok with you, go for it"

So, isn't it reasonable to take the next step and conclude that if it "looks like machine carving" this implies that it doesn't look like hand carving?

Am I understanding this correctly? If not, help me out.

So I ask, if you agree that it doesn't look like hand carving, why do you feel this way? Please refer to the photo I posted and cite examples of why.

Jim you know I think it looks like machine carving as it comes off the machine. You can do a fine job modifying it with hand work. Not many people can. Softening some edges and working things in can do so much.

I’m doing some things with my kids at the moment so forgive my abruptness. I would be happy to have a positive and constructive conversation about this very engaging topic. But I want to stress emphatically that no criticism of mine regarding the CNC carving has any bearing on your design, which I admire greatly.

 

[shaman]

I want to thank y'all for giving your opinions on this. I especially want to thank Mr Kibler for putting in his appearance. Great pictures.

The truth is I'm still really torn. However, I think I may go with the plain Woodsrunner when I finally pull the trigger. First off, this will be my first build. I know my way around finishing wood. I figure if Jim sends me a decent chunk of maple (I'm thinking fancy maple) I'll have what it takes to do a first project that really shines.

Beyond that? Look I got onto this idea, because I wanted a hunting rifle. After that, I have a wife who loves the artistry. She saw the carving and right away asked: "What are the options for engraving?" That's probably not going to be something I can tackle. I had chemo. I've got neuropathy. My days of doing really fine stuff are probably past me, but I can see buying an SMR for her down the road and sending it off to have it engraved.

BTW, Jim: Any talk of a CNC'd carving option on the SMR?

EDIT: Originally, I was asking where the Youtube was re: the new carving option. Funny, the darn thing just showed up in my Youtube Reccomended list:

 

[EC121]

This is my opinion only.
It is comparing apples and oranges. A one-off rifle compared to a mass produced rifle. It would be hard to get any decent builder to do the quality of the carving that you get on Jim's mass produced kit for the money Jim charges. I have several nicely carved rifles done by various builders, BUT I paid over $4000 each for them. I was looking at one of his but Wayne E. beat me to it.
As a mass produced product, whether you like it or not, his kit is a deal for the price.
Maybe if he engraved "Made In Italy. Black Powder only" on the barrel , there would be more acceptance on this forum.

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Again, it’s Maryanne or Ginger…. I have an arm for each one.

Jim Kibler, you do you, and thank you.

 

[deerstalkert]

Really, it's okay if this carving doesn't fit your taste. It would be nice if those critical of the way it's executed in terms of design style etc are knowledgeable about original work. The reason is this.... By stating it's machine cut or doesn't look right because it's cut with a machine is suggesting that it's not made with the same design standards as original work. It's a way of passing judgment.

The real question is why do some like to be critical of this carving? It may be as simple as expressing a taste, but sometimes it's more. Sometimes it's because they might make guns by hand and these things are a bit threating. Maybe they might like the notion of rustic and hand-made versus machine made. Also, being critical is sometimes a way of propping your own efforts up. Maybe your work is a little naive, rough when compared and it's nice to think that originals were also this way. I don't know...

Herein lies the problem in my view... Most or should I say the vast majority of those who try to carve a gunstock are not at all capable of doing this to a very high level. This is just being honest. They may enjoy the process, feel proud of their efforts etc. but when comparing it to good original or contemporary work, it just doesn't come close to measuring up. This is just honesty...

So what are the options with a kit? How many can hand carve a stock with any degree of skill? How many can hand carve a stock such that it can be as good or better than the incised machine made version? I can answer this... VERY few. This is because I've seen hundreds or thousands of attempts. I've studied orginals. I've taught many carving classes. I'm viewed as one of the better contempary longrifle carvers etc. I'd like to think that my opinion holds some merit.

It might be nice to see some hand carved versions that you like? Maybe this will help me understand.

Also, it might be helpful to look at this carving specifically and perhaps you could share, what makes this look "machine made" and not representative of original work.

after studying that picture Mr. Kibler, i sense a trap.
that said i must interject, If you don't like incised carving, don't buy one.
it seems to me this argument is following the lines of years ago when machine checkering replaced that of hand tools.

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

Here's a different take all together a CNC'd Kibler rifle will hold its value every time if finished properly. A custom rifle by unknown builder is only worth what someone is willing to pay based upon the "known" name of the builder. The number one question asked is "Who built the rifle" If the carving, inletting etc isn't excellent quality work the value tanks usually beyond the value of parts. Example: a Kibler Woodsrunner with factory incised carving will easily fetch 2200-2500 range quickly. A fully custom rifle with so-so carvings may get 800 from unknown builder vs up to say 4500 if its quality work from say Hershal House. You know what your getting with Kibler and value you have, vs you can pay 3000 for a custom rifle and its resale value might be 1200.
Or take number 2. You could buy a Chevy 1500 off the car lot, yes many will have the same truck but its still a fine truck. Or you could buy a custom built Johnny Too-Tall garage made truck, while it might be a custom made one of a kind truck and be better built, but when you go to sell its Chevy vs "Who the heck is Johnny Too-Tall" Truck. Just another take on it.

 

[Packrat]

As a machinist / tool maker for years, there is little that a CNC machine, with a good programer, can't do. Yes is is machine donee / made but so are our barrels and most other parts
Hand made can and is great, but for some of us that is beyond possible

 

[Ditt44]

I think the machine carving looks great. I personally like the non-carved look, if I were buying a any gun, kit or not. Personal taste is what it is and there's no shame either way. I am also not big on inlays and I've seen some guns that looked more like my wife's jewelry cabinet projectile vomited into the gun stock.

 

[mikesto44]

As long as you want something done exactly like the other person fine. We can run this back an forth for a hundred pages. But it still boils down to personal choice.

 

[Ed Pilkington]

Winchester did it. So did the others back in the day. I appreciate
Jim giving some the opportunity to own a well done carved rifle. Have any of you ever altered a stock weapon to suit your personality? My 1970 .50 caliber CVA percussion mountain rifle has morphed into a 20 gauge flintlock smoothbore with heaps of decoration that i treasure. Mikesto44 had a gracious encouraging word for us to love and respect one another’s words, creations and recreations. My great=grandfather was well known in the area where he roamed for applauding a good crop and encouraging the effort “to make it like it was mine”.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

As long as you want something done exactly like the other person fine. We can run this back an forth for a hundred pages. But it still boils down to personal choice.

Personal choice....!

 

[Siringo]

It looks like machine carving. If that’s ok with you, go for it.

So, here are some photos of one I finished. A better comparison between the relief carved version. In looking at this incised carving again, I can confidently say it is not only very similar to how I would incise carve it by hand but also that it falls within the scope of original incised carving.

As you can hopefully see, much depends on finishing techniques.

I want to be clear, individual taste is fine, but when judgments are passed that I feel are inaccurate, you'll hear from me.

I will also say, that very few have the ability to carve a stock well. This is just honesty.

I’ve seen some pretty awful carving. But the barrel was signed by the builder. So that must make it OK. I am thankful that you offer this option. For the increased cost it is by far a better value to me than paying a so-called expert $2000 that did not meet meet my expectations. At that point there is no coming back.

There are a half dozen on this thread that don’t like the cnc incised carving. BUT I bet there are hundreds if not a 1000 or more that are thrilled. Keep up the innovation.

 

[mikesto44]

If everyone liked the same things. It would be a pretty dull world.

 

[Griz 54]

As a machinist / tool maker for years, there is little that a CNC machine, with a good programer, can't do. Yes is is machine donee / made but so are our barrels and most other parts
Hand made can and is great, but for some of us that is beyond possible

 

[billraby]

As a machinist / tool maker for years, there is little that a CNC machine, with a good programer, can't do. Yes is is machine donee / made but so are our barrels and most other parts
Hand made can and is great, but for some of us that is beyond possible

It is only impossible for those who never bother to learn.

 

[leakytire]

If everyone liked the same things. It would be a pretty dull world.

There you go! There'd be no skinny people if There were no fat people!