"Nice Shot" shot (somewhat long)

[Joel/Calgary]

Especially since the disappearance of bismuth (bismuth-tin alloy) shot, there's been interest in "Nice Shot" - a tungsten-iron alloy suspended in a tin matrix & coating, with about the same density and hardness as high-alloy lead shot. Unfortunately, it's as expensive as one might expect - currently US$60 per kg(2.2lb). The inventor's website is http://www.niceshotinc.com/ and the actual supplier is http://www.ecotungsten.com/shots.html It sounds good, but there were still some questions that had not been explicitly answered about its suitability for muzzleloaders, so I posted a couple of questions via the "comments" section on the NiceShot blog http://www.ecotungsten-niceshot.blogspot.com/ There's more there that's relevant, but below are my post and his answers. To read all the comments & questions/answers, scroll to the bottom of the blog and click on the word comments - it currently says "22 comments".

The short answer seems to be "We're in business!" Plus, he's looking into making non-toxic roundballs!

Joel

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Anonymous said...

Hi, Dan,

My hunting partners and I are looking at doing more of our waterfowling with our muzzleloaders. Thus far, we've done well with a dwindling supply of Bismuth #4s in lieu of lead #5s for ducks, and the one with a choked double has been impressed with them on the Canadas he's shot (medium to small, around here - no giants). Hence the first couple of questions:
- Will Nice Shot work in older (non-steel-shot) barrels without shotcups, or will we have use some sort of shot protectors?
- Have you had any reports of folks using Nice Shot #5s on (smaller) geese, especially at sub-1200fps velocities? I realize we can go to #4s when after geese at our ranges, or even #3s if you ever make them (don't really need #2s), but a one-size-fits-most shot is quite desirable when hunting primarily ducks with muzzleloaders, and #4s would leave the pattern kind of open for teal (assuming we can hit with them!).

On to other matters:
- Can you tell us the Brinell hardness of the TTI alloy? I vaguely recall an impression of maybe mid to upper teens from something on the original version of your website.
- As a slightly off-the-wall question, might the alloy be suitable for use as round-balls for use in areas under lead bans, like the California condor area? If so, is the alloy amenable to home-casting, and/or could you set up to produce the balls for the most common calibers, possibly .440", .490", .530", and .570"? I don't know how familiar you are with front-stuffers, but this is a subject that has generated much anxiety and discussion in muzzleloader hunting circles, and smoothbores don't care how hard the ball is, while rifles can generally use hard-alloy balls in a smaller ball with thicker patch combination.
- For that matter, non-toxic .22RF ammo might be worth investigating for similar reasons.

Thanks
May 15, 2008 12:46 PM


Blogger Big Dan said...

Hi Guys!

Nice Shot will work in your barrels without a shotcup, although a dash of graphite would keep any buildup of tin from forming.

#5 will work on smaller geese, a couple of my friends use it in there 20 gauges.

The hardness is 14.9~16.0 Brinell. A little harder than magnum lead shot.

As for the round ball for muzzle loaders. We are looking into manufacturing this in the near future but melting down the shot to cast round balls doesn't work well because the materials do not stay suspended evenly causing an out of balance ball.

Hope this answered your questions. If you have any more concerns, please post or contact me by email.

Thanks,
Dan
May 27, 2008 8:40 PM

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I think we should give some consideration to the matter of non-toxic roundballs. At the moment, this seems only to be an issue with hunting ammunition and currently only in the California Condor areas, but there is the worry that this could be a growing trend. If he's looking at producing them, it might be worthwhile to give him some input on what sizes might economically successful. My impression is that these are swadged and/or sintered, then coated, so startup cost is rather higher than just cutting some mold blocks and melting some alloy.

What calibers would be in sufficient demand? My first thought is probably .45, .50, .54 (rifle & 28ga smoothbores, and the TC .56 smoothbores), and .58 (rifle & 24ga smoothbores). Then maybe .36, .62 (besides rifles and 20ga smoothbores, these could likely be use in .66/16ga and .69/14ga smoothbores), and maybe 12ga/.72 (could likely also be used in .75/11ga and .77/10ga smoothbores). I'd suspect sizes like .44 and .32 might be further down the economic pike, and revolvers even further (and more complicated, with thicker tin coatings over the too-hard composite). What think y'all?

Given that this composite has an aggregate hardness of pre-1970s wheel-weights, they would likely have to be in a smaller-ball-with-thicker-patch combination for use in rifles. Given the variations in bore dimensions, what should we suggest for a one-size-small-enough-to-fit-most ball size for each caliber?

Joel

 

[paulvallandigham]

Sizes: .440(.451), .490(.50), .530(.54), .570(.58), .600(.62), .715(.72). That would give the widest range of these caliber dimensioned barrels something to shoot.

I fervently pray that California is soon over-run with the small vermin, and game animals, like rabbits, squirrels, moles, mice, rats, that carry all kinds of diseases(ex. hanta virus) that can be passed on to humans, to teach the idiots the short sightness of their legislation. Let the pestilence begin in Sacremento. Wait until PITA finds the state paying people to POISON these small vermin, in order to stop outbreaks of various contageous diseases! When the ptotected hawks, owls, eagles and condors start swooping down in suburbia to kill kittens and puppies, and scaring the hell out of the soccer moms, the howls will be heard to NYC!

 

[Oldnamvet]

When the ptotected hawks, owls, eagles and condors start swooping down in suburbia to kill kittens and puppies, and scaring the hell out of the soccer moms, the howls will be heard to NYC!

Ouch! Not very PC. :rotf:

 

[Allan Gray]

Sheeesh, Paul, I've read you're posts and expected better from such a gentleman than ill-wishes on we Kalifornians. :shake:

Being over ridden with game would suit me fine!
DFG will be more generous with permits, and I would find something to down 'em with! I happily live just North of the no lead zone for the moment. Actually saw a young Condor perched in a tree on Saturday. I had to look twice, very impressive dinosaur sized thing. I was hoping that a local tree hugger wouldn't see it and blow the whistle, spreading the madness to my back yard.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Nobody is more delighted with the success we have had in bring the condor back from the brink of extinction, than me. We have done the same with many other species, including the Bald Eagle, the Polar Bear, River Otter, Sea Otter, Whooping Cranes, and a vast array of waterfowl, and ducks. We have cleaned up our waters from the silt, and garbage we were putting into it, making it smell better, drinkable, and able to sustain food sources, fish, and wildlife that had disappeared from much of the country. Mussels, which are like mice in that they are at the bottom of the food chain, for many aquatic, fresh-water species, are coming back.

The Greenies refuse to give us any credit for all this, much less acknowledge how much cleaner our air is now than it was 40 years ago. They intend to use the Endangered species act to acquire more power, and more control over all of our lives, and our private property, so that their idea of a Great Society trumps everyone else. In spite of clear evidence that the Earth is cooling, and not warming, they insist that Humans are responsible for Global Warming. They insult our intelligence, and insult us, and frankly, No ONE appointed them God to sit in judgment of me, or you or anyone else. The best thing that can happen in California now, is for juries to simply refuse to convict any one of violating this latest stupid law prohibiting the use of lead in the " condor zone". Its clear that the Left wing has a strangle hold on California politics, and politicians, from The Governator on down. I am sick of them. It is they who are runing this country, and this planet with their stupid, short sighted laws, their willingness to act anytime one of their bunch cries " the sky is falling" without thinking of unintended consequences, or checking the so-called research behind any such claims.

These are the folks that told us the OZone layer was being destroyed by aerosols, costing our society BILLIONS of dollars to set up research programs, to ban the fluorocarbon sprays, etc. all based on the fact that some genius found a hole in the Ozone layer near the South Pole! Since then, the " Hole " seems to open and close annually, but no one is fired, No has to say I am sorry " to the American People, No one has to pay us taxpayers damages for all the money they cost us, and our economy. And the geniuses can't tell us why the Hole opens or why it closes. But the EPA and all its little Nazi cells in every state keep right on finding ways to take more an more control over every facet of our lives.

I feel for you, but wish your neighbors would be standing on that slice of California that is suppose to slide off into the ocean, and pray it happens sooner than later. And let Susan Sarandon be the first in the water, leading those Hollywood socialists with her.

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Let'em have it with both barrels Paul, and reload! It is refreshing to know that others outside the state are paying attention to what is happening here. California is quickly becoming a third world country run by a bunch of socialists.
The liberals complained there were no turkeys here. Now there are cities that are being "over run" with the birds, the same with Canada geese. Their solution is to trap them and relocate them. There is one historic building in my area being under mined by ground squirrels costing hundreds of thousands to repair. The tree huggers have blocked efforts to rid the area of the varmints because they have a right to live. It is truely amazing here.
Again,good on you Paul, but go easy on the coffee. :thumbsup: :rotf:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

With respect, this is not the proper forum for essentially political discussions. Can we please get back to the topic at hand?

Joel

 

[BrownBear]

:thumbsup:

You might want to go back and reread his brief comments about alternative RBs. I'm not sure he really "got" the potential, and a followup contact might be in order.

Thanks for tracking this!

 

[kevthebassman]

So this stuff isn't as dense as pure lead? I thought that the substitutes tended to be more dense than lead.... If it's heavier than lead as much of this alternative stuff tends to be, the potential is there to turn the PRB into an even more efficient killing machine. If it's the same or lighter, then it's still good news for you folks in california and other places on the verge of lead bans.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

So this stuff isn't as dense as pure lead? I thought that the substitutes tended to be more dense than lead....

In the patent and the approval announcements, it is referred to as tungsten-tin-iron shot, in order of decreasing content. Tungsten is denser than lead but iron and tin are lighter. It seems to be fine tungsten-iron-alloy particles in a tin matrix. When it was first approved, the density was given as 11.0g/cc, approximately that of moderately alloyed lead, and that appears to be the density of the composite material itself. Later, they said they added a tin coating to the shot and gave a density of 10.2g/cc for the resulting shot, about that of hard cast-bullet alloy (Kent tungsten matrix shot is 10.6 IIRC). I wouldn't be surprised if the net density of much larger roundballs is not closer to 11 as the ratio of tin coat to composite material will likely be lower.

For reference, pure lead is around 11.4, common shot alloys are around 11.0-11.25, bullet alloys go as low as 10.0, bismuth shot (an alloy with 15%(?) tin) is 9.69, and iron ("steel" shot) is 7.86.

Joel

 

[Tman]

Crap! now you say we have to kill the Greenies AND the Muslims? No, that was what I said.......

 

[Allan Gray]

I've searched high and low for a suitable non lead material, including "lead less" solder, which is O.K. for school plumbing in California but not O.K. for ammo. :shake:
This "nice shot" looks great. I'd love to see how it compares to lead for myself. The calibers Paul mentioned would be a good start.

Thanks for the info :thumbsup:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Before I get back to Dan, I have a couple of more questions about ball sizes, mostly concerning variations in bore sizes.

Is .715 small enough to work in .72 rifles as well as the normal range of 12ga bores?

Ditto for .600 for .62 rifles as well as 20ga?

Would .565 be more universal than .570 in the various .577/.58 bores?

Would .430 work for .44 rifles/pistols.

What size for .32s? I use both .300 buckshot and .310 balls.

How much demand might there be for non-toxic revolver ammo? If he were to consider making them, presumably with extra-thick tin coatings to shave rings in different size chambers, what diameters would be needed?

Thanks,
Joel

 

[BrownBear]

I'd sure prefer something a little smaller for my 58. A .570 lead ball requires using .010 patches, so with balls that didn't compress a little I'm betting I'd have to use even thinner ones. Currently I'm casting .562 balls and using .018 patches. If I had to go a little thinner, it wouldn't be as big of a deal. Others may feel really differently, so more feedback would be good.

 

[renovato]

I think revolver balls would be a lot of work. Assuming the mix isn't going to be as soft as lead, having the right diameter is going to be even more important. Just in .44 caliber you find .451, .454 and .457. Rugers prefer the .457, Ubertis prefer the .454, and Piettas either the .451 or .454. Since that's not actually an alloy that their casting with, it might be a lot of trouble to make balls from.

 

[BrownBear]

I think revolver balls would be a lot of work. Assuming the mix isn't going to be as soft as lead, having the right diameter is going to be even more important. Just in .44 caliber you find .451, .454 and .457. Rugers prefer the .457, Ubertis prefer the .454, and Piettas either the .451 or .454. Since that's not actually an alloy that their casting with, it might be a lot of trouble to make balls from.

Hadn't thought of revolvers, but you're right. Compound the issue with the standard practice of shaving off a little lead as the ball seats in the cylinder, and harder balls could be real troublesome.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I think revolver balls would be a lot of work. Assuming the mix isn't going to be as soft as lead, having the right diameter is going to be even more important. Just in .44 caliber you find .451, .454 and .457. Rugers prefer the .457, Ubertis prefer the .454, and Piettas either the .451 or .454. Since that's not actually an alloy that their casting with, it might be a lot of trouble to make balls from.

I don't know that they can, either. If they do, it will be with an outer layer of pure tin, which is is fairly soft, like they now have a thin layer of tin over the composite shot. How difficult is it to use a .457 ball in a Pietta?

Joel

 

[kevthebassman]

I've never tried, but a .451 ball shaves off a perfect little ring every time. I'd imagine that .457 would be a bear to load.

 

[renovato]

My Ubertis are sized for a .454. A .457 can be loaded, but with a lot of effort. Realistically it should only be done with a loading stand, as it's too hard on the gun's lever and would wear it out in short order. If the metal was harder, I don't know that it could be done at all.